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French economy- how can it not collapse

  1. Oct 19, 2007 #1

    JPC

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    French economy- why hasnt it collapsed yet ?

    Hey i live in France, and i wonder how the French economy can keep it itself from collapsing

    I mean : they have all sorts of taxes (regular taxes, social security, retirement, and all sort of others)
    these taxes often take u away 50 percent of ur profit (before 60, but sarkozy hopefully reduced it a little to 50) (very motivating for companies to set themselves up in France)

    Thus, once u have hired someone its very hard to fire him , if you do, theres always big manifestations, strikes, or the unions are all charging up against you (btw in france , a union = communist party) (ok so a company will not hire much because they are scared of getting bad elements that they cannot get rid of)

    If you are unemployed you get like almost as much money as if you work, and if the government finds u a job you can refuse it (man , the state is already generous to give them money, and they refuse ; and very motivating to work if u almost get as much when u do nothing)

    Thus , its hard to work more than 35 hours per week, but zarkozy is trying to change that by instoring extra hours (Man , would it be easier to just get this stupid law instored by lazy communists)

    And, the social security taxes are way too expensive, those who pay them usually don't use half of it for healthcare

    And, the taxes system is very complicated, cant they just simplify it, instead of complicating everybody's lives

    Thus, they have 5 weeks of payed holidays, thats way too much taxes for companies, they are not going to encourage economy like this

    And now , the strikes here are of the worse. When there were people manifesting / striking against the CPE (a law that had been voted by the senate and Congress that meant that you could fire more easily for the 2 first years, so that companies can see what their new workers are worth) , well they were under illegality :
    - they blocked roads, schools , Factories (there is a law which says that you cannot block education or transport to other people, and that you cannot impose your cause to other people) : and of course if we try to stop them from doing that all the human rights associations and unions come down on us and say we are dictators. This should not be, you got to respect the law !!! and this CPE had been voted by a democratic system . Denying this law would mean denying the very principles of democracy !!
    We should not have taken it away just because 1 million lazy socialist/communists dont like it

    Ok , and now you wonder why France hasn't collapsed yet
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2007
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  3. Oct 19, 2007 #2

    Art

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    Guess they must be doing something right then :smile:

    Seriously though, in world rankings they may not be trail blazing but they are far from being basket cases either. Their rankings on most economic metrics is around the average for developed countries whilst in social areas such as health they are excellent.

    They tried the standard capitalist route and didn't like it very much hence their revolutionary past and for some years in the recent past they swung too far the other way and seem to have it about right now.

    By the way being a representative democracy has nothing to do with single issue majorities. As Benjamin Franklin said that sort of democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting for what's for lunch.
     
  4. Oct 19, 2007 #3
    The Bush administration pays for everthing with borrowed money. How much in debt is France? You might give it a try.

    The USA is at 9,053,374.164,766 and counting.

    http://brillig.com/debt_clock/
     
  5. Oct 19, 2007 #4
  6. Oct 19, 2007 #5

    EnumaElish

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    The great abstract scientists of the modern age were British, the great philosophers were German, and France had all the engineers. Even their economists were engineers first, economists second!
     
  7. Oct 20, 2007 #6

    JPC

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    ok so :
    USA dept : about 30 000 dollars / citizen
    French dept : about 15 000 euros / citizen
    USA total : about 9 billion and counting
    French total : about 1 billion and counting

    For the depts, i dont understand, cant they just say "if you dont have the money to do that, then you dont do that"

    But for USA, i dont understand, dont other countries have depts onward USA ? i mean that if you to the substraction of the USA dept by the sum of all the depts that other countries have onward USA, does it end up positive or negative ?

    And who benefits from these depts ? which countries have given the most credit to the world ?
     
  8. Oct 20, 2007 #7

    russ_watters

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    Debt is not the key issue here. The USA's high gdp growth rate enables us to be ok (not as good as we could be with lower debt, but still good). France is in trouble because of low economic growth, low productivity, and high unemployment. France is in trouble, as you said above, because of it's belief in socialism. Debt stretches an economy thin, but pushes it along. It is an enabler.

    Socialism is just an anchor. No penalty for failure + reward for succeess = malaise. France is going down the economic path the Soviet Union took to its death.

    It does have one big, big, big positive, though, which may just save it: nuclear power. France is positioned to win big in the coming Nuclear Power Revolution. (you heard it here first)
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2007
  9. Oct 20, 2007 #8

    russ_watters

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    Debt doesn't work fundamentally differently for countries than for individuals or businesses. Few people have enough money lying around to buy a house, so they get a loan. I bought a house last year and had only 10% of the cash that the house cost, so I got a loan that will take 20-30 years to pay off.
     
  10. Oct 20, 2007 #9

    JPC

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    ok, i agree

    and as for france
    i hope its going to step out of socialism
    the problem is that about 35 percent of the population are either communist or socialist, and that these person always show up , while the rest are more reasonable : the 65 other percent dont go on huge strikes on the roads, ect
    I hope Sarkozy ,unlike the preceding presidents, will not give up the laws he creates through democracy because of socialist/communist strikes pressure
     
  11. Oct 20, 2007 #10
    This debt business between countries is a complete mystery to me. In fact, I could be a little bit interested in economics as a science, but I don't have much time for it now, since I'm too busy with mathematics and physics.

    If an individual is unable to pay his debts, or refuses to pay them, some officials can take his stuff and house away, and put the person in some service, or something like that... If a country refuses to pay its debts, then what? There is nothing above the big countries, so it looks like different kind of debt to me.
     
  12. Oct 20, 2007 #11
    If I've understood correctly, there's a some kind of inequality problem in the France, and this is encouraging people to the extreme left.
     
  13. Oct 20, 2007 #12

    JPC

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    what, inequality pushing people to the extreme left ??

    People who create their small companies, either without employing anyone because its so expensive because of the taxes, or with some workers.

    Now, Its not fair for them to have to pay 50 percent taxes on what they earn.

    Thus, they have to pay for their retirement (in the form of taxes), and most of it wont come back to them, but will pay the retirement of lazy people.

    Thus, these people dont have the 5 weeks of payed holidays, and they sometimes cannot afford 5 weeks holidays because of the high taxes.
    And worse, for farmers, they cant go on holidays because they have no-one to take care of their farms while.
    And, these payed holidays should not be, the slogan of the french republic involves 'equality'. Is it equal for one to be able to have 5 weeks of payed holidays thus working only 35 hours per day, and the others working probably 2 times more, without payed holidays, and giving 50 percent of their hard work to the government (in final not earning that much more than a worker)
    For example , my dad who is a doctor (8 years of hard study) , only gets a few more euros than a plumber (because of taxes)

    Communist have often claimed that the companies were exploiting the workers. In France its the workers who exploit the companies. (not saying that all workers are like that, but there are quite a lot)

    So, in conclusion , the workers have nothing to complain about (even if they still do). Its the Others who should.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2007
  14. Oct 20, 2007 #13

    russ_watters

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    If a country decides they aren't going to pay their debts, their economy implodes instantly.

    The debt is in the form of bonds. You buy a bond, in a year or ten years, the government pays you back plus interest. If the government announces one day they aren't going to pay you back, the bond is now toilet paper. Worthless. People who buy and sell bonds on the open market stop trading them, the country's currency itself then becomes worthless, the money that is represented by these bonds doesn't get spent on the economy, and the economy stops. It would be a disaster.

    Now you'r right that banks get collateral when giving out loans, so they are protected, but that doesn't protect them completely. Giving a loan to someone with bad credit in a bad housing market works the same as what I said above, and it did drive banks out of busines.
     
  15. Oct 20, 2007 #14

    Gokul43201

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    Last edited: Oct 20, 2007
  16. Oct 20, 2007 #15

    russ_watters

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    I'm not sure what inequality you are talking about it, but France has one of the smaller income inequalities in the industrialized world. And that's the problem - not enough inequality. Unemployed? No biggie - the government will keep you out of poverty. No need to look for a job. Have a job? Great, you're invincible - no need to work hard, you can't get fired!
     
  17. Oct 20, 2007 #16

    JPC

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    Yes i know.
    And man, for whats contradicting is that its like so dramatic for them if theyre fired. I dont understand them , i wouldnt like to work all my life in the same company. And why they even making a big deal if they receve money from the government if unemployed. And this money that they recieve is at the expense of hard working people, they should be greatful to them instead of striking against them.

    And also another problem in france , its a democracy , but you cannot do what you want. For example you have to prepare your retirement with their system where you have to pay retirement taxes , where they would send it back to you little by little once you are retired. Well what if i just want to put money aside by myself, that i dont want to be assisted. If at retirement i use it all up in 3 years and after have none left, well its my problem. And this money, if i die before i have used it all up, it would have gone to my children , instead of staying in the government's pockets.
     
  18. Oct 20, 2007 #17
    I don't know. I've merely been listening to people talking. You know its the complaining that leftists usually do the best. Most of my friends are leaning towards left in politics. It's in fashion over here :/ I'm staying out of it, because it would cause too much harm on me. I have other things to do.
     
  19. Oct 20, 2007 #18

    Art

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    Last edited: Oct 20, 2007
  20. Oct 20, 2007 #19

    EnumaElish

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    Actually there is one aspect in which a country's debt is different from private debt. Depending on the denomination, a country can choose to pay its debt by printing money. As long as they are prepared to live with inflation for a long time.
     
  21. Oct 20, 2007 #20

    EnumaElish

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    Also, France's "special relationship" with the French-speaking peoples (e.g., Africa) doesn't hurt, I am sure.

    Actually, all of Europe did collapse, before it was Yankee'd back to its feet following WWII (think Marshall Plan).
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2007
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