From Cartan's Theory of Spinors, x1^2 + x2^2 + x3^2 = 0

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Spinnor
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Spinors Theory
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of isotropic vectors as defined by Cartan, specifically focusing on the equation x1^2 + x2^2 + x3^2 = 0. Participants explore the implications of this equation in the context of complex vectors and spinors, touching on mathematical definitions and potential connections to harmonic oscillators.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces the concept of isotropic vectors and expresses confusion regarding the mathematical representation of complex vectors, particularly in relation to a reference link.
  • Another participant challenges the correctness of an equation presented, providing an alternative expansion of the square of a complex number.
  • A further contribution discusses the representation of complex vectors as sums of real and imaginary components, suggesting that understanding spinors may be better approached through Clifford algebras rather than the referenced material.
  • Participants mention the algebraic properties of Clifford algebras, including their role in generating rotations and their relationship to spinors, while noting the dimensionality and periodicity of the algebras.
  • One participant speculates on the relationship between complex numbers, phase space, and the emergence of spinors under the condition X*X = 0, suggesting a potential connection to harmonic oscillators and quantum mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the best approach to understand spinors, with some participants advocating for Clifford algebras while others reference different materials. Disagreement exists regarding the correctness of specific mathematical expressions, and the discussion remains unresolved on several points.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions and mathematical steps involved in the discussion, particularly concerning the expansion of complex numbers and the implications of isotropic vectors.

Spinnor
Gold Member
Messages
2,231
Reaction score
419
Let x1, x2, x3 be the components of a complex vector.

If x1^2 + x2^2 + x3^2 = 0 Cartan calls this a isotropic vector.

So if,

x1 = a*exp(i*theta) then
x1^2 = a^2*exp(2*i*theta) ?

I think I'm being confused with what I read here,

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/spinor.htm

in particlular the definition of x*x = a^2 + b^2 + 2*i*ab

Thanks for any help.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The last equation seems to be wrong. With x defined as x=a+ib you get
x^2 = x*x = (a+ib)*(a+ib) = a^2 + iab + iab + (ib)^2 = a^2 - b^2 + 2iab
 
Note in that definition, the vector x is expressed as a sum of a real and imaginary vector.
(\vec{a} + i\vec{b})\bullet (\vec{a}+i\vec{b}) = \vec{a}\bullet \vec{a} + \vec{b}\bullet\vec{b} + 2i\vec{a}\bullet \vec{b}
where \bullet is the dot product.

However I do not think your reference is the best way to understand spinors. The construction does not well generalize to higher dimensions. The best way to understand spinors is imnsho to consider first Clifford algebras (orthogonal algebras).

You start by defining the cllifford algebra abstractly as the algebra generated by a set of vectors subject to the property:

uv + vu = u\bullet v \mathbf{1}
where again the big dot is the dot product (the metric of the vectors).
(Some conventions introduce either a factor of 2, -1, or -2 into the dot product on the rhs. This is just a matter of rescaling the magnitudes of the generators.)

So if two vectors are orthogonal,
u\bullet v = 0
then they anti-commute
uv = -vu.

These vectors form a graded (semi-graded) algebra with the identity being grade 0, the vectors, grade 1, and grade two elements are generators of rotations on the vector space.
\sigma = uv-vu
generates a rotation in the plane spanned by u and v. Assume now that u and v were orthogonal and normalized vectors. This means in the algebra we can exponentiate:
R(t) = \exp( t\cdot \sigma/2)
To yield a rotation operator which acts adjointly on the vector generators:
w' = R(t) w R^{-1}(t)
yields the rotation of w in the u, v plane by angle t. (I may be off by a scaling factor on this angle depending on the above mentioned defining convention.)

All the algebraic properties of the Clifford algebra are defined by its given relations so you can do all calculations without writing them down specifically as matrices. However if you write a matrix representation of the Clifford algebra then the "vectors" upon which these matrices act are in fact spinors.

Examples, Hamilton's quaternions are a clifford algebra expressing rotation in 3 dimensions. So to are the complex algebra generated by the Pauli spin matrices. (Note there is a choice of sign convention in the dot product which gives two Clifford algebras for a given vector space.)

Also the Dirac gamma matrices are the generators of the clifford algebra corresponding to lorentz transformations on Minkowski space-time. (There's a second all real representation yielding Majorana spinors).

You have to do a bit more initial work playing with clifford algebras to get the feel for them but once you do, you will find that they are the best way to deal with and understand spinors.

An interesting feature is as you increase the dimension of the underlying vector space you get a doubling of the dimension of the spinors (doubles for each two added dimensions) so after a while the spinor space is larger than the vector space.

You also find a periodicity in the type of algebra (real, complex, quaternionic) you get when you consider clifford algebras of higher dimension and of various metric signatures.

Porteus' book "Clifford Algebras and the Classical Groups" is the best reference I've found but may not be a good starting point.

Take a look at http://www.av8n.com/physics/clifford-intro.htm"
On a quick glimpse it looks to be a good intro.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Edgardo said:
The last equation seems to be wrong. With x defined as x=a+ib you get
x^2 = x*x = (a+ib)*(a+ib) = a^2 + iab + iab + (ib)^2 = a^2 - b^2 + 2iab

Back on track, thank you. There must have been a typo in the web page.
 
jambaugh said:
Note in that definition, the vector x is expressed as a sum of a real and imaginary vector.
(\vec{a} + i\vec{b})\bullet (\vec{a}+i\vec{b}) = \vec{a}\bullet \vec{a} + \vec{b}\bullet\vec{b} + 2i\vec{a}\bullet \vec{b}
where \bullet is the dot product.

However I do not think your reference is the best way to understand spinors.
...

Thank you, I think I'm back on track.

If a complex number can represent a point in the phase space of 1D harmonic oscillator then I'm guessing a triple of complex numbers can represent a point in the phase space of a 3D harmonic oscillator. If we make the restriction X*X = 0 then spinors "pop" out. My hunch is that the restriction X*X = 0 means the phase space path lies in a plane?

I think I have read that there is a quantum mechanical connection between the group SU(2) and a 2D harmonic oscillator. The long shot is that some form of restricted motion of a 3D harmonic oscillator at each point of space gives us spin?

Thanks for your trouble, I will try and understand what you wrote.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 50 ·
2
Replies
50
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K