From noether theorem to Laplace-runge-lenz vector

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between symmetries and conserved quantities, specifically focusing on the symmetry underlying the Laplace-Runge-Lenz vector. It explores theoretical aspects of conservation laws in classical mechanics and their connections to symmetries, including references to Noether's theorem and other mathematical frameworks.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that each conserved quantity is related to some symmetry of the system and questions what symmetry underlies the Laplace-Runge-Lenz vector.
  • Another participant suggests that the symmetry is related to SO(4) symmetry and other groups containing subgroups isomorphic to SO(4).
  • A different participant references the Poisson brackets that define the symmetry algebra related to the Laplace-Runge-Lenz vector and introduces the concept of topological conservation laws that may not be linked to local symmetries via Noether's theorem.
  • One participant argues that the conservation of the Runge-Lenz vector does not correspond to a symmetry of the Lagrangian itself but arises from an invariance of the integral of the Lagrangian with respect to time, mentioning a derivation of the conserved vector for any spherically symmetric potential.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the symmetry related to the Laplace-Runge-Lenz vector, with some proposing specific symmetries while others challenge or refine these ideas. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of the underlying symmetry.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about symmetries and conservation laws, particularly concerning the relationship between local symmetries and topological conservation laws. The derivation mentioned may depend on specific conditions related to spherically symmetric potentials.

wdlang
Messages
306
Reaction score
0
it is said that each conserved quantity is related to some symmetry of the system

so, what is the symmetry underlying the Laplace-Runge-Lenz vector?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
SO(4) symmetry and other groups containing subgroups isomorphic to SO(4).
 
Have a look at the Poisson brackets defining the symmetry algebra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace–Runge–Lenz_vector

Remark: there are so called topological conservation laws which are not related to a local symmetry via Noether's theorem. Think about a field exp(iθ(α)) where the angle α is defined on a circle S1, so α lives in [0,2π]. When α runs once around the circle from 0 to 2π the field θ (which must be periodic on the circle) may run from 0 to 2wπ with w = 0, ±1, ±2, ... The winding number w is a conserved quantity b/c no local deformation or oscillation of the field θ(x) can change this winding number.
 
Conservation of the Runge-Lenz vector does not correspond to a symmetry of the Lagrangian itself. It arises from an invariance of the integral of the Lagrangian with respect to time, the classical action integral. Some time ago I wrote up a derivation of the conserved vector for any spherically symmetric potential:

http://analyticphysics.com/Runge Vector/The Symmetry Corresponding to the Runge Vector.htm

The derivation is at the level of Goldstein and is meant to fill in the gap left by its omission from graduate-level classical mechanics texts.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: 1 person

Similar threads

  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
7K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K