# From toy to a real machine

1. Aug 24, 2016

### RonL

A short video of a button toy I'm sure most have played with at some point of their life

In my mind I have carried it to a different level, a drawing made many years ago, that I will never follow through on. It is a conceptual rendering only and not intended to be operationally correct, other than the mass of structure to hopefully fit the energy that will be working.
Lacking the engineering skills needed to calculate things, I'm making this thread for anyone that might be interested.
I'm not looking for confirmation that it will work, (I know it will) using the start point as a 100kg flywheel and the tension provided with hydraulic pressure between the pistons. Looking at the cable section, as I see, the length and diameter of attachment, will determine the energy and speed induced into the flywheel.
There will be a critical timing of pressure involved and taking energy away from the flywheel as it reaches the end of twisting the cables.

I would love to see some thoughts from anyone in relation to converting pressure into kinetic energy.
Thanks
RonL

2. Aug 25, 2016

### Staff: Mentor

It would help if you explained the real world purpose of using this toy as a machine.

Right now it reminds me of this song from Peter, Paul and Mary:

3. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

Typical me, not being satisfied with a button or cardboard, stepped up to a 2" and about 2 or 3 oz steel washer, the fishing line that I used broke at just the right time because I did not chamfer the holes I had drilled in the steel, poor workmanship in that case saved the tips of my fingers.
In the operation of the video the toy version is energized by pulling the twisted string causing the disc to spin as the string unwinds, the tension in a persons arms add and absorb the flywheel energy in each cycle.

My drawing, In the shortest words, it's a generator.
In the drawing the flywheel cycles each direction but the energy to slow the flywheel is transferred into one side of the generator and then the other. The generator halves are using clutch bearings, which allows them to continue spinning one direction while the flywheel turns opposite.

It will be a high pressure small volume force between the pistons.
If a combustion chamber is the design choice, it might be that the short stroke and slow distribution of power will allow an almost 100% efficient burn of fuel.
I had hoped the drawing might help prevent me trying to explain so much (my biggest downfall, explaining what's in my head)

4. Aug 25, 2016

### Staff: Mentor

What are you trying to do? what is this machine for?

5. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

In my mind I see a very low maintenance, slow steady action generating machine. The actions throughout the machine have very little sliding friction wear points. The pressure applied from the pistons all through the twisted cables transforms into spin of the flywheel and generating halves, those bearings would need lubrication once or twice and replacement would be several years. IMHO bearing life is one of the most predictable things in mechanical engineering.

6. Aug 25, 2016

### Staff: Mentor

Wouldnt you have stress / strain on the cables? Wouldnt they fail sooner than bearings?

7. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

Yes, but the twist involves very little linear motion. The cable set, depending on diameter of attachment, would extend and shorten as indicated by the rectangular shaft with spring tension shown in the drawing.
That is one thing I'm not sure is needed and if it serves a good function, just how much movement or tension will help or hinder the energy to the generating and flywheel portion.
I don't think anything would wear out before the bearings.

8. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

I'm not sure, but this might be the slowest cycle generator ever invented.

9. Aug 25, 2016

### OmCheeto

it looks like a novel design for a gas powered generator to me.

RonL's question appears to be:

Which seems like a legitimate question to me.
I interpret it as "What are the energy losses associated with Whirlygig toy, and do those losses scale up?"

I'm afraid I'm not willing to build a 100 kg (220 lb !) version to find out, empirically, those losses, as my physical therapists limited me to lifting only 20 lbs.

But I just went out and weighed one of my 4 very useless spare tires, and it weighs 17.37 kg. I wouldn't have done that normally, but I'm in the midst of my own invention, which requires me to know that number.

No matter. It's novel, and may have oceanic wave energy extraction potential. As I pointed out the other day, options shouldn't be discounted, until science shows that it doesn't work out.

Not sure if you checked out the rest of my scientific idea failures the other day. Here's another one:

ps. Just looking at this "whirlygig" thread sparked something in my brain this morning, and I solved one of many technical problems. Thanks!

Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
10. Aug 25, 2016

### Staff: Mentor

Om, i couldnt find the humorous punchline.

11. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

I think I understand how you made the leap to ocean wave energy, but there is room also for the thought "boat anchor"
If I helped you solve something, then my life can't be a complete waste
Also I didn't find your secret web site, I'll look again.

12. Aug 25, 2016

### OmCheeto

After a lifetime of having an overactive imagination, science, sooner or later, killed the humor.

Wow. I just checked, and that website was put up less than a year after I joined this forum.
It's hard to believe I've been here 8 years, and this place destroyed all of my fantasies, in only 9 months.

I don't think I've ever shared the URL, as I badmouthed PF the day I wrote it up; "I decided to bring my ideas home, as the science forums I usually post at tend to dilute any hard science with opinions, disinformation, and general hysteria. I'm sure you've heard people saying they wouldn't drive one of those "death traps", or it's "bad economics" to be energy efficient."

That looks kind of mean. But that was 8 years ago, and my opinion of this place has changed a tad since then, so: Investigations into Poly-Hybridization of Prime Movers of Human Mobility Devices.

ps. I just noticed that there were no updates after 2008. So "my idea" seems to have popped up around that time.

pps. Sorry, that I seem to be in a hurry, but my friend just showed up, and I have to go to the river now. Ciao!

ppps. Oh. And I decided somewhere along the line, that god is an accountant. Hence my later "Energy is like my bank account" statement. Ciao! Ciao!

13. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

If the cable ends have a design ball and the point of attachment is a socket slot, the angle will very slightly move to a more appropriate alignment with the applied force of starting or stopping the motion of the flywheel. The strain eliminated will justify the very slight friction movement.
Little things like this can involve so many variations and complexities to the finished product, is why I realize it is a bigger project than my flat wallet can handle.

14. Aug 25, 2016

### Staff: Mentor

@RonL -- This thread has been reported as a Perpetual Motion Machine (PMM) thread or exploring an over-unity mechanism. I don't see that from a quick read, but how do you respond? What are you trying go achieve here? What are the thermodynamics of the improved fuel-->work mechanism that you propose please? Thanks.

15. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

I'll respond in a couple of hours or early tomorrow morning.

16. Aug 25, 2016

### Staff: Mentor

Thanks Ron. I'm the Mentor assigned to your thread at this point.

17. Aug 25, 2016

### jack action

Energy (in joules) is equal to the average pressure (in pascals) acting on the pistons times the volume (in cubic meters) displaced, or $E = p\Delta V$.

Power wise, it becomes: power (in watts) equals the average pressure times the volumetric flow (in cubic meter per second), or $P = p\dot{V}$.

That is what will come out of your generator (minus some minor losses).

The speed of the generator will depend on the load it has. If there is no load, then all the energy will be stored in the flywheel and/or the springs and, at any moment, $E =$ $\frac{1}{2}I\omega^2$ + $\frac{1}{2}kx^2$.

18. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

I guess the comment about combustion in the piston chamber being dissipated very slowly as pressure through to the flywheel, might allow fuel burn to be almost 100% complete, would give someone that doesn't understand mechanics very well a feeling that I'm talking nonsense.
Other than that, I have tried to mimic the video in every respect, the piston chamber I show, mimics the arm energy of a human.

The transfer of spin from the flywheel to generator halves should not strain the mind of anyone that has any understanding of rotational mechanics.
As for me I can see and understand mechanical things that I can in no way evaluate, hence my thread.

I hope the thread doesn't get out of hand and become locked, I feel the power transfer through so little slide friction should produce good efficiency.
Thanks
RonL

19. Aug 25, 2016

### RonL

20. Aug 25, 2016

### 256bits

The spring will have some internal heat buildup during the flex cycle, you some loss there.

As a kid we used to thread a string through the holes of a large button and whirl around.
I imagine the force from our hands was nearly constant during the power cycle; and during the relax cycle less force kept the string from twisting up on itself.

Your industrial sized version MIGHT have those forces varying in strength correctly as just a feature built right into it. Not sure though. I would expect some tinkering would be necessary to get it to operate at max mode of energy extraction.

Interesting scale up.