General Basic Income: A Way Forward in Automation Age?

[mheslep]

Compensation should be commensurate with effort and production.

I do believe that management is for the most part overcompensated, particularly when they work the same number of hrs but earn multiples, sometimes 10 or more times some of the most productive employees. And I do see cases where highest level managers take credit for the efforts and successes of other people.

I mostly agree though I'd drop most emphasis on effort for compensation, and place most all of it on production, or more accurately effectiveness. Effort is the means to the end (one of them). I respect it, and recommend rewarding effort in training periods, but not so much for the bottom line.

 

[Evo]

Sales people would be paid at the High School graduate/GED rate and "allowed" to earn up to the maximum PHD.

Right now, successful sales people in technical jobs make millions. It's because they are the ones that get that technology used and paid for. They are mostly morons, but can schmooze (I'm a techical salesperson BTW, so I can honestly say this from firsthand knowledge). A robot can't schmooze. Maybe when the inventions and the companies that own those inventions are robots, then robots might have some influence.

 

[WhoWee]

Right now, successful sales people in technical jobs make millions. It's because they are the ones that get that technology used and paid for. They are mostly morons, but can schmooze (I'm a techical salesperson BTW, so I can honestly say this from firsthand knowledge). A robot can't schmooze. Maybe when the inventions and the companies that own those inventions are robots, then robots might have some influence.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I included salespeople in the chart. Salespeople (like us as a group or not- I too do a lot of selling) drive growth and revenues. Many salespeople work on straight commission - no sales equals no compensation. It's not for everyone.

Last, a machine certainly can't schmooze, and I haven't met one yet that can explain a summary of benefits or ask qualifying questions and do a needs analysis. If someone invents one, I might be the first in line to buy one - I could use some help in the field.

 

[Zantra]

Right now, successful sales people in technical jobs make millions. It's because they are the ones that get that technology used and paid for. They are mostly morons, but can schmooze (I'm a techical salesperson BTW, so I can honestly say this from firsthand knowledge). A robot can't schmooze. Maybe when the inventions and the companies that own those inventions are robots, then robots might have some influence.

It's ironic that a $150k +/- sales person has to turn to the $75K +/-engineer when you need to know how this thing you have to sell works though, isn't it?

It's just a sad fact that in the business world, people skills are often more valued than intelligence and creativity.

btw, not directed at you Evo, just the industry in general.

 

[WhoWee]

It's ironic that a $150k +/- sales person has to turn to the $75K +/-engineer when you need to know how this thing you have to sell works though, isn't it?

It's just a sad fact that in the business world, people skills are often more valued than intelligence and creativity.

btw, not directed at you Evo, just the industry in general.

Even worse is when the high paid salesperson (I know a few - personal experience) makes promises that the Engineer then has to deliver on short notice (usually). I've always been in favor of "commission sharing" in these instances. If you can't tell, over-promising drives me crazy.

 

[Evo]

It's ironic that a $150k +/- sales person has to turn to the $75K +/-engineer when you need to know how this thing you have to sell works though, isn't it?

It's just a sad fact that in the business world, people skills are often more valued than intelligence and creativity.

btw, not directed at you Evo, just the industry in general.

I *HATE* sales people. It's such a sad world we live in when the scientists, doctors, inventors, engineers, etc.. make so little in comparison. Don't even get me started about the ones that don't bother learning about what they're selling, they seem to be the ones that sell the most, then dump the problems they create on everyone else.

I make more than my doctor, but I have more stress. We argue about that everytime I go in. We just end up singing the old He Haw song together "gloom, despair, and agony on me".

 

[rootX]

My employer was growing at a rate of like 1 new customer/6 months on average but he hired some sales people during this recession and now he is getting like 5 new customers/6month on average. He has masters in computer engineering and extremely technical but without sales people he couldn't do much.

 

[avant-garde]

Sales... what a risky job. I don't think I would be cut out for it.

 

[Zantra]

My employer was growing at a rate of like 1 new customer/6 months on average but he hired some sales people during this recession and now he is getting like 5 new customers/6month on average. He has masters in computer engineering and extremely technical but without sales people he couldn't do much.

Yes but it was engineers like him who created the product that his sales team hocks

I'm not saying sales isn't valuable, but credit where credit is due...

 

[avant-garde]

lol. This is slowly becoming a Meritocracy debate

 

[Evo]

Yes but it was engineers like him who created the product that his sales team hocks

I'm not saying sales isn't valuable, but credit where credit is due...

I have a good friend that is an inventor for HP. He has quite a few US Patents for HP in his name. He gets a nifty certificate saying it's his patent for HP, HP makes the money because they pay him to invent.

It's another example of the people that have the knowledge not getting the money.

But isn't Zantra going to be a millionaire neurosurgeon?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

My father was a salesman. When he was working, he was a charming and outgoing people person. Yet in private he was intensely shy. He read books on how to improve his sales skills. He sold switch boxes, the box that holds the circuit breakers down in the basement, for the General Switch Corp, currently out of business. Their biggest competitor was Square D, whose box is most likely in your basement. He had a high school education and supported his family very well, something I don't think is as common now as it was in his day. I believe he was paid more than the engineers. I don't agree that he was overpaid, his skill was just more in demand, that's all. I also don't agree that really good engineers can get paid at all without a salesforce. I'm an engineer myself. I never see customers and that fact alone probably accounts for why I haven't been fired.

 

[Astronuc]

I mostly agree though I'd drop most emphasis on effort for compensation, and place most all of it on production, or more accurately effectiveness. Effort is the means to the end (one of them). I respect it, and recommend rewarding effort in training periods, but not so much for the bottom line.

Well, in the case of effort, I'm assuming that the person applying effort is intelligent and diligent, and effort means hard working, as in tackling a problem, especially an intractable problem. I work with major companies, which supply the technology, and the scientists and engineers who develop the technology. I have little patience for 'salespeople' or commercial agents who are generally clueless with the respect to the technical details.

As for salespeople - they seem not to realize that if not for scientists or engineers, they would not have anything to sell - especially the high priced (cars, computers, electronics, appliances, aircraft, power systems, . . . .) technological items. Scientists and engineers not only design products, but they also develop the technology to manufacture the products, and that is not a trivial exercise.

I do sales in the sense of marketing my (and the company's) services. However, I prefer the technical work, and marketing is more or less incidental.

 

[Insanity]

As for salespeople - they seem not to realize that if not for scientists or engineers, they would not have anything to sell - especially the high priced (cars, computers, electronics, appliances, aircraft, power systems, . . . .) technological items. Scientists and engineers not only design products, but they also develop the technology to manufacture the products, and that is not a trivial exercise.

Without someone willing to be a salesperson, the items would never be purchased. Its not just one way. Manufacturers need engineers who can design the product and salespeople to sell the product. Salespeople need the engineers who design the product and the manufacturers to produce them. Engineers need manufacturers who are willing to make their design and salespeople who are willing to sell the final product.

 

[Astronuc]

Without someone willing to be a salesperson, the items would never be purchased. Its not just one way. Manufacturers need engineers who can design the product and salespeople to sell the product. Salespeople need the engineers who design the product and the manufacturers to produce them. Engineers need manufacturers who are willing to make their design and salespeople who are willing to sell the final product.

In most cases, there is a market (a demand) for a product - without the need for a salesperson. In the technology companies with which I interface, the product design engineers and manufacturing engineers work together, since how the product is manufactured can have a significant impact on the performance of the product in its intended environment.

 

[Zantra]

I have a good friend that is an inventor for HP. He has quite a few US Patents for HP in his name. He gets a nifty certificate saying it's his patent for HP, HP makes the money because they pay him to invent.

It's another example of the people that have the knowledge not getting the money.

But isn't Zantra going to be a millionaire neurosurgeon?

ROFL do you have a photographic memory or something?

I left that train of thought a while ago..It just came down to a time factor- it would have been my 2nd career, and I'd have been like that old lady on scrubs, falling asleep at rounds.
I guess I just couldn't deny my inner geek child playing with cool toys.

Sadly the only way to make money from an invetion is to do it independently and then sell your invention- but then you lack the support systems you may need to it in the first place- a vicious cycle

But I think I've derailed this thread enough..

 

[mheslep]

Well, in the case of effort, I'm assuming that the person applying effort is intelligent and diligent, and effort means hard working, as in tackling a problem, especially an intractable problem. ...

I drew the distinction because not that infrequently I find people that work very hard with a good work ethic and perhaps even highly intelligent, but still on the wrong track. They'll be somehow self involved to the extent that they are blatantly at odds in some manner with the stated needs of the organization, or even their own direct interests if self employed. A common problem in engineering is the fellow that won't let go of the last project. That behaviour can't be rewarded simply because a high level of effort was displayed.