Geodesic Congruences in FRW, Schwarzschild and Kerr Spacetimes

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the theory of geodesic congruences within the context of various spacetimes, specifically Friedmann-Robertson-Walker (FRW), Schwarzschild, and Kerr metrics. Participants explore the notation used in the equations, particularly the use of Latin and Greek indices, and the implications of these choices on the clarity and correctness of expressions in general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant summarizes the theory of geodesic congruences and introduces the notation used, highlighting the role of the deviation vector.
  • Another participant points out the inconsistency in using Latin and Greek indices, suggesting that Greek indices imply specific basis components, which may not hold in other bases.
  • A participant defends their notation choice, stating they followed conventions from referenced texts, aiming for clarity in coordinate-independent expressions.
  • Concerns are raised about the ambiguity of using indices, particularly in expressions like ##\delta_t^{\mu}##, where the mix of index types can lead to confusion.
  • Clarifications are offered regarding the meaning of the indices in specific coordinate systems, emphasizing the role of the Kronecker delta in identifying components.
  • A suggestion is made to include a section on conventions used in the discussion to avoid confusion over notation.
  • Another participant agrees that sign conventions related to curvature and the Ricci tensor should also be explicitly stated for clarity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the clarity of using mixed index notation, with some advocating for clearer conventions while others seem less concerned about the issue. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best practices for notation in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the use of indices can lead to ambiguity, particularly when mixing Latin and Greek letters, and that assumptions about the basis can affect the validity of certain equations.

ergospherical
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Education Advisor
Insights Author
Messages
1,100
Reaction score
1,387
Introduction
The theory of geodesic congruences is extensively covered in many textbooks (see References); what follows in the introduction is a brief summary. Consider a 1-parameter family of timelike geodesics ##\gamma_s(\lambda)##, where ##s## labels each geodesic in the family whilst ##\lambda## is an affine parameter along each ##\gamma_s##. Then the vector field ##\xi \equiv \partial / \partial s## is tangent to curves of constant ##\lambda## and is interpreted as a deviation vector between neighbouring geodesics.
In some neighbourhood of the family, ##(s,\lambda, x^2, x^3)## is a coordinate chart satisfying ##\xi = \partial/\partial s## and ##u = \partial/\partial \lambda##. By the equality of mixed partial derivatives, the commutator of ##u## and ##\xi## is zero (i.e. ##\xi## is Lie transported along ##u##),\begin{align*}
0 = [u, \xi]^a = (L_{u} \xi)^a = \xi^b \nabla_b u^a – u^b \nabla_b \xi^a
\end{align*}which implies that ##\dfrac{D\xi^a}{d\lambda} = u^b...

Continue reading...
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Abhishek11235, vanhees71, fresh_42 and 1 other person
Physics news on Phys.org
Hi,

congratulation for the job done. I would like to point out some topic already discussed in PF so far.

I noted you use both Latin and Greek indices even if not together in the same formula ! So for example in the first part of the Introduction you use Latin indices (i.e. Abstract Index Notation) while in FRW section Greek ones (Ricci calculus notation).

My understanding, as discussed so far and in line with the first insight's reference (H. Reall, Part 3 General Relativity section 1.6), is that the second one (Greek indices) actually involves objects's components in a given basis (namely a given basis for the vector space and its associated dual-vector basis).

So, from a general point of view, a Greek indices equation valid in a particular/specific basis is not true in other bases.

That said, I believe the reason since you employed Greek indices in the rest of the insight is that you were assuming specific coordinate charts for each of the spacetimes discussed.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
Yeah as far as possible I tried to use Latin indices (or no indices) for coordinate independent expressions and Greek indices when evaluating the components in a particular basis. (That's the convention of Wald and Reall.)
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
To be onest, I'm often in trouble with expression like that in FRW section, namely ##\delta_t^{\mu}##. Here ##\mu## as Greek index has the role of "which component" whereas ##t## is the name of a fixed given component (coordinate name).

Do you think there is a way to get rid of that (and similar) ambiguity ? Thank you.
 
Can you clarify what is confusing you? In the coordinates ##(t,r,\theta, \phi)##, the vector ##u = \partial/\partial t## has a ##t## component of ##1## and the rest of the components 0, i.e. ##u^{\mu} = \delta^{\mu}_t##. Recall that the symbol ##\delta^{\mu}_{\nu}## is ##1## if ##\mu = \nu## and 0 if ##\mu \neq \nu##.

Alternatively, you can write ##u^{\mu} = dx^{\mu}(u) = dx^{\mu} \left( \dfrac{\partial}{\partial t} \right) = \dfrac{\partial x^{\mu}}{\partial t} = \delta^{\mu}_t##.
 
ergospherical said:
Can you clarify what is confusing you? In the coordinates ##(t,r,\theta, \phi)##, the vector ##u = \partial_t## has a ##t## component of ##1## and the rest of the components 0, i.e. ##u^{\mu} = \delta^{\mu}_t##.

Recall that the symbol ##\delta^{\mu}_{\nu}## is ##1## if ##\mu = \nu## and 0 if ##\mu \neq \nu##.
No no it makes sense. IMO the point to be highlighted is that the letter ##t##, actually, is not Greek so in this case there is no problem.

My point is broader in the sense that many times mixing Greek and Latin index names turns out to be confusing.
 
Ohhh, haha, okay. I wouldn't lose sleep over that. 😛
 
Another common convention is for latin letters to be 3-tensors, and greek letters 4-tensors. It always helps to have a section making explicit any conventions that are not universal. An unobtrusive way to do it is to have an appendix on this, with one sentence in the intro referring to the appendix for conventions.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71, cianfa72 and ergospherical
Yes, and also all the sign conventions about the curvature and Ricci tensor are also nice to have ;-).
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K