Gibbs phase rule use for wet vapour

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Gibbs phase rule in thermodynamics, specifically in the context of a water and water vapor system. Participants explore the implications of the rule when considering the dryness fraction and its role in determining the state of the system.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the application of Gibbs phase rule, suggesting that while F=C-P+2 gives F=1 for the water and vapor system, the dryness fraction must also be known to fully specify the state, implying a need for two variables.
  • Another participant argues that the dryness fraction is not a variable in the context of Gibbs phase rule, suggesting that it cannot be arbitrarily included in the degrees of freedom.
  • Further discussion raises the point that different specific volumes can occur at different dryness fractions, challenging the notion that dryness fraction is irrelevant.
  • Some participants emphasize that for the phase rule's application, the vapor must be considered either saturated or not, and that average density of "wet steam" should not be treated as a variable.
  • A request for further elaboration on the density logic is made, indicating some participants are not fully satisfied with the explanations provided.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the treatment of dryness fraction as a variable in the context of Gibbs phase rule. There is no consensus on whether it should be included in the degrees of freedom.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of variables and the specific conditions under which the phase rule applies, particularly in relation to the treatment of wet steam.

Ravi Singh choudhary
Messages
123
Reaction score
7
I have a doubt regarding gibbs phase rule in thermodynamics.. It says the number of independent intensive properties required to specify the state of a system is F=C-P+2 where C is number of components and P is the number of phase.. So for a water and water vapour system, C=1, P=2 . So F=1. If we specify the temperature,pressure is fixed. But inorder to completely fix the state of the system, the dryness fraction should also be known. As the dryness fraction determines specific volume of the system. So 2 variables are required, which is not correct according to Gibbs phase rule. Am i making any mistake in this? Please help
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
Ravi Singh choudhary said:
dryness fraction
Not a variable in the sense you are using it.
 
Bystander said:
Not a variable in the sense you are using it.
How? I can have different specific volumes based on different dryness fraction.
 
Ravi Singh choudhary said:
I can have different specific volumes based on different dryness fraction.
Can you?
 
Bystander said:
Can you?
Yeah in in Pv diagram of water I have series of points on the horizontal line inside the vapor dome.
 
For application of the phase rule vapor is saturated or it is not; you don't have the option of looking at the average density of "wet steam." That is not a variable you can arbitrarily include in the degrees of freedom.
 
Bystander said:
For application of the phase rule vapor is saturated or it is not; you don't have the option of looking at the average density of "wet steam." That is not a variable you can arbitrarily include in the degrees of freedom.

I am getting your point but somehow I am not satisfied, can you please elaborate espicially your density logic.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
7K
Replies
25
Views
4K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
6K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K