russ_watters said:By age 18, a person should recognize salesmanship puffery and should understand that the "Whatever you want!"
Way too often, they don't recognize this, the age of 18 still being too young for some students. Some people's family members are not much better at informing them either. A student needs a informative, experienced community to help them make some decisions. Kid going to school is just not enough. Kid choosing something like some science "major" is just not enough.russ_watters said:By age 18, a person should recognize salesmanship puffery and should understand that the "Whatever you want!"
Yes, family is where I think the responsibility lies. At 18 parents can no longer apply direct force, but they can still provide advice and significant strategic pressure (as mine did).symbolipoint said:Way too often, they don't recognize this, the age of 18 still being too young for some students. Some people's family members are not much better at informing them either.
What is also really bad, is that further when a student chooses something in a physical science, after having some difficult academic experiences, student becomes afraid of some material from certain courses, is not sure what to do with some advice from counselors and professors, and then makes inadequate educational decisions for further courses or opportunities and by doing so, limits his knowledge and skills; which just makes getting good jobs later, more difficult.russ_watters said:Yes, family is where I think the responsibility lies. At 18 parents can no longer apply direct force, but they can still provide advice and significant strategic pressure (as mine did).
Zap said:believe that the majority of PhD students are somehow mentally challenged
Understandable, and very common. Students change their major field a few times before settling on something.Zap said:I want to say that it is really common to go to university with no idea what you will do after.
Not credible, because applying to a PhD program needs so many lengthy qualifications and then being decisive about what you will do in the PhD program. High grades, earning letters of recommendation, deciding what particular area to study, finding official advisers, knowing why you want some PhD program and activity and explaining it clearly in writing. If any forum members who were in PhD programs had "absolutely no idea why you were there", tell us now.Zap said:I would say that the majority of PhD candidates at my school have absolutely no idea why they are there, but they have the belief that somehow it is going to be worth it in the end.
symbolipoint said:Not credible, because applying to a PhD program needs so many lengthy qualifications and then being decisive about what you will do in the PhD program. High grades, earning letters of recommendation, deciding what particular area to study, finding official advisers, knowing why you want some PhD program and activity and explaining it clearly in writing. If any forum members who were in PhD programs had "absolutely no idea why you were there", tell us now.
Broadly speaking, some PhD's are in for it because of the experience or the fact that there are simply grants for it.Dr. Courtney said:This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.
Dr. Courtney said:This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.
Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?Natuurfenomeen22 said:Broadly speaking, some PhD's are in for it because of the experience or the fact that there are simply grants for it.
Most of the PhD's I have met are very much putting effort into it and seem to have a plan, but not all have this quality ;)
Getting into a PhD is not easy either, not in my experience at least.
So to the OP, just see what skills you might be missing and work from there.
Zap said:I should also note that I did have a goal while in college. I wanted to be a research scientist and do the whole PhD thing, but then I changed my mind. If I had stayed on that path, I probably would’ve been a clueless PhD candidate looking forward to a job in “the industry.”
symbolipoint said:Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?
symbolipoint said:Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?
Natuurfenomeen22 said:Most PhD students are above 90% of the students IMHO and thus very capable.
gleem said:Of those about 3300 are admitted to grad school
Vanadium 50 said:The other relevant number is something like 6000 people take the Physics GRE. So one can conclude that about twice as many (a wee bit less) people who want to go to graduate school (at least badly enough to pay a few hundred bucks for the GRE) as actually get in.
Dr. Courtney said:A 2.8 GPA in Physics from most Louisiana schools is pretty underwhelming for a job candidate. (I am from New Orleans and graduated from LSU.) I tend to steer most students I mentor away from Louisiana universities, as their academic rigor has declined considerably over the past 30 years. Positive paths to employability are much more likely with GPAs above 3.5 with a BS in Physics from most Louisiana schools. Below a 3.0 screams mediocrity and is really a tough spot.
My advice? Use free (and inexpensive) online programs and learn to program on your own time. Create a few meaningful projects and release your source code to the public domain so you have it to point to on resumes and interviews. Until you improve your marketable skill set, your best chances are in the food, retail, hotel, and gaming industries. There are also programs to transition you into a high school science teacher.
that's common for every university/college and their programs. They all tout how their programs, from AC Techs to Physicists have huge marketability... then you get online and see that the majority of people can't find work. it's just part of the system.Dr. Courtney said:I think the real issue is unrealistic expectations of mediocre graduates rather than low employability. Perusing the marketing materials of several second and third tier physics departments shows how they are fostering these unrealistic expectations with statements such as:
symbolipoint said:Doing some more thinking about this, a student needs to think about what kind of job he wants when he finishes a degree such as BS. Degree in Physics. To not do this kind of thinking nor search for information about it, is not very good. This might be more a problem of younger people choosing such a degree than of older, more experienced people choosing same degree. You need to have some idea what kind of job you want and make course choices that will help qualify you for such jobs. Otherwise, maybe get some vocational training or earn a vocational certificate. You want to have practical skills and useful knowledge so that you are hireable for something.
It wasn't a secret. But I had no real alternatives. It's not like I'd be guaranteed a job with any of the other majors I could have chosen.Locrian said:I Disagree. People interested in a physics degree don't seem to care what happens after they get it (or at least don't do any significant research), so poor results don't feedback into fewer undergrad students. The low employability of the physics BS has been a regular discussion on this board for at least fourteen years, so it's not like it's a secret.
pi-r8 said:I don't think it's fair to compare students from different majors like that. Physics students consistently have some of the highest SAT scores of any major, and (in my experience) they tend to be much stronger students than average. This is especially true at low prestige schools where a lot of students will be struggling to pass math classes that are at the level of remedial middle and high school math, while the physics majors have to learn things like partial differential equations as just part of one class. It's like a whole different university.
To make a broad generalization- physics tends to attract students who are smart and diligent, but naive. So they study hard and pass a lot of difficult classes, then get a tough reality shock when they have to apply for non-academic jobs. The professors are like that too so they're not too good at mentoring students who aren't planning to become physics professors. The new graduates struggle because they have no practical experience or training, but do end up OK eventually just because of their natural gifts, and that's reflected in the graph you posted where the physics majors have a huge salary range compared to most of the others. (Math majors also have a huge range, since that seems to be pretty similar to the physics major in a lot of ways)
The OP of this thread has a lot more work experience than the average new graduate, so I'm kinda surprised he'd make a thread like this. But I guess it's just hard for everyone. My advice for him is to go into teaching high school physics, since he expressed an interest in teaching and there does seem to be jobs open for that (as long as you're willing to move). He could also look for data analyst jobs, which are pretty broad and hire people with a lot of different backgrounds as long as they can read spreadsheets.
at my university lower gpas in physics are common. Your 3.66 may not seem like much to you, but it is pretty good in comparison. As I said. Had a couple of rough semesters, with all that was going on in my life, I was struggling just get to the end. if not for 5 courses that I should have dropped/not taken in the first place, I'd be at a mediocre 3.2. but there's nothing I can do about that now except get some experience under my belt.Zap said:Do you really think GPA matters that much? I don't think a high GPA from a third tier school in physics is going to be much different than a low one, unless you want to go to graduate school. What probably matters more is your ability to network your way into an internship, like at LANL or Raytheon. You'll have it made after that. I guess LANL and Raytheon have GPA requirements ... but, internships and experience are still more important.
The last time I checked, the GPA requirement for LANL is 3.2, so it's not like amazing. That is mediocre in physics, at best. At Raytheon, I think it is a 3.5, which is good. Anything lower than a 3.0 is pretty crappy, and I think you'll have trouble finding work with any degree.
But I graduated with a 3.66, and I am pretty much in the same position. I wanted to work for the government and make bombs, but it has been difficult to get into it. I would move to the middle of nowhere and make bombs, but I still don't get an interview. I am still trying. The data analyst stuff is a good bet. There are tons of those jobs. It seems pretty cool, too. Technical sales is a job. Pharmaceutical sales is another. I don't know what else you can do with a physics degree. Becoming an engineer is pretty tough, but might be possible. How could you apply your physics degree to engineering?
I think many of us believe and are told that things will work themselves out as long as we go to school and get good grades. I think many of us also think that we will have our choice of job offers after graduation. I also think many of us took out loans irresponsibly thinking we could pay them off with a good job afterwards. We ask our professors, "what can I do with x degree in some weird theoretical stuff?" They respond with "Whatever you want!" We see motivational posters telling us that you will succeed in x degree. Why study x degree? Become a problem solver! Whatever that is! We have everyone telling us, "Wow, you are such a good student. You are going to be successful." We convince ourselves that good student is synonymous with success and turn a blind eye to the fact that we're being robbed by financial aid services, because it feels good to be "successful." It feels good to be told that you're smart and the world is your oyster. When graduation nears and we finally start looking for jobs, we find out that none of our classes are directly applicable for the positions that we're applying for, but we apply anyway, because we are a fresh grad, and we think we are a hot commodity. After some time, we make a post similar to OPs and wallow in despair. Eventually, I suppose we have to settle for something, anything?
The school needs to focus more on providing at least an awareness of real job opportunities and resources to get started in those jobs to their students. I don't think it is sustainable the way it currently is. People may not want to attend university anymore. I think it has already lost a lot of respect and prestige. I actually paid a thousand dollars for a class that was suppose to be about preparing for graduation, and it was total nonsense. They are money grubbers and money dumpers foremost. The students come after, in last place.
russ_watters said:You have to decide what job you want, prepare for it, and then go after it. Or failing that be willing to cast a wide net in a wide field (as I did).
I'm going to look into data analytics. what kind of skills do you need for that? should I brush up on statistics? what does the job require of you?Zap said:I was a bit cynical in my last post. I think a physics degree is pretty good for working as a civilian for the department of defense. You just have to know what you want to be doing, like previously mentioned. It's also pretty good for a lot of different stuff. You just need to acquire some skills related to what you want to do and then you can get there with your physics degree. Right now, I am talking to people in data analytics and the department of defense. It's hard to get into the national labs, but that is also possible. I am talking to someone from one of those, too. I guess you just have to keep trying and try to keep a positive attitude.
When I was 18, I didn't know my arse from my elbow. In all honesty, I was a complete and utter diaper baby. I wasn't coddled by my parents. My parents were relatively strict, but I was definitely sheltered from the world and had no idea what I was doing. I can blame a lot of my problems on my parents. They weren't really active in my life and took a back seat to it. I sometimes think that my birth wasn't planned. I am a twin and have an older brother. So, if you can imagine accidentally getting pregnant with twins. That might make you resent them. They didn't have a lot of money when me and my twin were born. Now, they were stuck with taking care of three kids. I am almost certain that my father resented me because of that. I barely have a relationship with him or my mother. I never felt close to them. I hardly ever talk to them. But that is something I should discuss with them at a later time. However, I am also responsible for my own actions. A physics degree really isn't that bad, if you think about it. It's a decent degree, and it can get you to many places, depending on where you decide to go. Unfortunately, I still have a lot of growing up to do, even though I'm almost 30 ... I wonder about this a lot. I plan on discussing it with my parents soon, and I have to forgive them and become an adult. I believe I am on my way. It is better late than never, I suppose.
Additionally, my parents never seemed to have their act together. My father has a PhD in microbiology and was unemployed for most of my memory. My mother had a bachelor's degree in biology but switched from job to job in unrelated things, even working at Walmart for a significant period of time. I don't know why they would always push school on me. It didn't seem to work out for them. I don't know why they thought it would work out for me. To this day, my father pushes me to get a PhD. For what? To be unemployed? I don't get it. Sometimes, you find yourself in a soup with a perfect recipe for disaster, but I didn't do half bad, considering that.
Zap said:I want to say that it is really common to go to university with no idea what you will do after. I would say that the majority of PhD candidates at my school have absolutely no idea why they are there, but they have the belief that somehow it is going to be worth it in the end. When I ask them about their goals, they usually don't have any besides passing dissertation or some really vague concept of some job in what they call "the industry." This, among other things, made me absolutely despise graduate school and believe that the majority of PhD students are somehow mentally challenged. I understand how painful a PhD can be, and I respect the fact that anyone with a PhD has gone through hell and back. However, I don't understand their motive behind it, unless it is because they are from a third world country.
I should also note that I did have a goal while in college. I wanted to be a research scientist and do the whole PhD thing, but then I changed my mind. If I had stayed on that path, I probably would’ve been a clueless PhD candidate looking forward to a job in “the industry.”
grandpa2390 said:I didn't go to LSU. My understanding is that it is an easier school, but I doubt my gpa would be a 3.5. I'd most definitely have a 3.0 from my own school if not for unfortunate events... had I been able to go to LSU, I would have done ChemEng
grandpa2390 said:I'm looking at programming languages to learn. Javascript seems to be most popular?
grandpa2390 said:that's common for every university/college and their programs. They all tout how their programs, from AC Techs to Physicists have huge marketability... then you get online and see that the majority of people can't find work. it's just part of the system.
LSU might be harder in Physics. I was just speaking in general about the reputation of the school as a whole. Don't take it personally. Even if LSU were inferior, it makes no difference. I doubt I would have gotten better than the 3.2 I should have gotten at UNO.Dr. Courtney said:The only two Louisiana schools with decent cases to be harder than LSU in Physics are La Tech and Tulane. Tulane is telling the truth, La Tech is not. If you were at Tulane, odds are attending LSU would have been an option. So I'm betting you were at a school that really is nowhere near LSU in terms of their quality. So odds are, your degree is from a La university that is not even in the top tier Physics programs in Louisiana, and that's pretty poor. (Side note: even though we were Louisiana residents and I graduated from LSU in Physics, I would not allow my sons, both Physics majors, to attend LSU, because of grade gifting and other slides in academic quality since I attended in the 1980s. Students who can do better than public colleges in Louisiana, SHOULD do better than public colleges in Louisiana. LSU is the best physics program, but the best physics program in Louisana is not good enough for my own sons.) If you went to any other school than Tulane, you were simply not told the truth about LSU being easier in Physics.
I was left to pick my major from what was available to me. I switched a few times and settled on Physics because I believed the hype that it would open the most doors. and I spent the remainder of my college career till now trying to figure out what I'd do after I graduated. Process Engineering and Teaching are the only two careers that appealed to me. Though I could probably make a decent lawyer.Another rabbit trail: My dad wanted me to major in ChemEng at LSU. The day before I submitted my application, I asked his permission to list my intended major as physics. We both knew it would be a far less employable major in Louisiana. But he sensed my real love, my true passion for physics, so he gave his permission and blessing. But you have to rock a physics major to be anywhere near as employable in Louisiana as a 3.0 GPA Chem Eng major from LSU.
I don't know anybody at UNO with a 3.5... I'm sure they exist. But I think they are uncommon enough to still be exceptional.Python seems to be the thing these days and has been the first language my sons learned. Transitioning to other languages as needed for research/employment opportunities has been straightforward.
The key question that goes unasked is "What GPA is needed for good employability in a given major at a given school?" In Physics, the answer is almost always above 3.0, and at most Louisiana schools, it's above 3.5.
If you have education on your heart, then go for it. Your GPA will not hold you back. I remember all my high school science and math teachers fondly, and I am grateful for them. I've spent a few years myself teaching high school, and I'm giving hundreds of volunteer hours each year either helping out at local high schools or developing curricular resources to make their jobs easier. But do a good job. Don't gift grades. Be their hardest teacher. They may hate you in the present (I did). But they'll love you later (I do.)
grandpa2390 said:yeah me too. I don't blame you for not wanting your kids to go to a Louisiana school in general. I wish I had grown up in a state with an education system that wasn't ranked #50. But a low gpa from a Louisiana school doesn't mean I'm incapable. In my case I fell on hard times. If i could just prove myself.
grandpa2390 said:I got a poor gpa at a third-rate school (or fourth-rate compared to LSU?). These are the facts, I have to live with that. I need to figure out how to climb out now. So python. I believe that is the one taught by the professor in The Great Courses. I watched one of the lectures, but I wasn't sure about it. With your confirmation and experience, sounds like I ought to go through that lecture series.
grandpa2390 said:What else would you recommend to someone in my position? What other skills can I learn to make myself more marketable? A lot of job postings I see don't even ask for gpa. So I can't even claim that gpa is bringing me down at this moment. My lack of marketable skills in the bachelor degree world seems to be my first problem.
Teaching is still my goal. I just need to have a backup plan.
that's funny and sad at the same time :(Dr. Courtney said:Yep, you have to prove yourself. Fortunately, the level of proof you need to teach in LA is pretty low.
You know, LSU might be better. I say might only because I have no experience at LSU and am unqualified to make definitive statements. If the professors at LSU speak fluent english, then it is already a step above UNO. I don't want to sound like a mean person; I respect anyone who learns a foreign language because I failed. But it is really difficult to learn from someone who has trouble communicating complicated ideas.UNO is not far below LSU, but claims to be better are exaggerated. Students I've mentored have done well with Coursera's Python offerings: https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=python
Not that I'm sure they are better than what you're looking at, just that I know that they are pretty good (and free.)
I'm not sure if I'd be able to stomach it. But I tried being a car salesman, I'll try that too if I need and get the opportunity. I'm not absolutely stuck in NO though. if I can get a decent job, then I can put a little money into my house and rent it out. Some part of me wants to get out of Louisiana, I just need to have security before I do in the form of a job lined up or an emergency fund I can live on till I get a job.The gaming industry has an ugly side to it in the NO area, but they have a real need for programmers with security skills. Build some skills on the security side of programming, and (if you can stomach it) gain some industry experience. I can't really stomach the gaming industry: too many slime balls. But some friends and family have had good experiences. (Some also have had bad experiences.) Especially if you are stuck in NO, give it some thought.