Gravitational Analysis of Wide Binaries

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the gravitational analysis of wide binary star systems, specifically addressing claims made in a paper regarding the gravitational force law and its implications for Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity. Participants explore the relevance of the Pioneer anomaly and seek simulation programs to assess the proposed gravitational force law in comparison to established theories.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that peer-reviewed papers suggest wide binary systems do not conform to Newton's or Einstein's theories for accelerations below approximately 10^-10 m/s^2.
  • There is a proposal for an alternative gravitational force law based on the analysis of V541 Cygni and DI Herculis, with inquiries about simulation programs to test this law against traditional theories.
  • Some participants question the relevance of the Pioneer anomaly to the discussion, suggesting that it has been resolved by accounting for asymmetric radiation pressure.
  • Others argue that the disagreement between John Anderson and Turyshev regarding the Pioneer anomaly indicates ongoing contention in the field.
  • A later reply challenges the validity of the proposed model in the referenced paper, citing discrepancies in predicted behaviors compared to observed data.
  • Repeated requests for simulation programs to evaluate the proposed gravitational force law against Newtonian and Einsteinian predictions are made, emphasizing the need for empirical assessment.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the relevance of the Pioneer anomaly and the validity of the proposed gravitational force law. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus reached on the implications of the findings or the necessity of the alternative theory.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion is complicated by the interrelation of the Pioneer anomaly with the proposed gravitational force law, leading to some confusion about the focus of the inquiry. There are also references to specific papers and claims that are not universally accepted, indicating a lack of consensus on the interpretations of the data.

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TL;DR
Several peer reviewed papers on wide binary star systems conclude that for accelerations below approximately 10^-10 m/s^2 these binary systems do not obey Newton's or Einstein's gravitational theories. The following peer reviewed paper entitled Gravitational Analysis of V541 Cygni, DI Herculis and the Pioneer Anomaly offers an alternative theory. Are there any available simulation programs out there that can be used to assess the gravitational force law in this paper for wide binaries?
Several peer reviewed papers on wide binary star systems conclude that for accelerations below approximately 10^-10 m/s^2 these binary systems do not obey Newton's or Einstein's gravitational theories. The following peer reviewed paper entitled Gravitational Analysis of V541 Cygni, DI Herculuis and the Pioneer Anomaly offers an alternative theory. Are there any available simulation programs out there that can be used to assess the gravitational force law in this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system?

Reardon, A.C. Gravitational analysis of V541 Cygni, DI Herculis, and the Pioneer anomaly. Astrophys Space Sci 336, 369–377 (2011). https://doi.org/10.1007/s10509-011-0789-4

[Moderator's note: PDF attachment deleted. Copyrighted material should be linked to, not attached.]
 
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juggler said:
... Pioneer Anomaly...
Wasn't that resolved by accounting for asymmetric radiation pressure? Was stuff like that accounted for those wide binary star systems?
 
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John Anderson who discovered and extensively studied the Pioneer anomaly does not agree with the results of the analysis performed by Turyshev in 2012.
 
juggler said:
John Anderson who discovered and extensively studied the Pioneer anomaly does not agree with the results of the analysis performed by Turyshev in 2012.
Do you have a reference that supports this?
 
Regardless of your stance on the Pioneer anomaly, the gravitational force law proposed in the paper mentioned in the original post was calibrated based upon the data collected from two binary star systems that have been studied extensively for decades (V541 Cygni and DI Herculis). Based upon this I am asking if there are any available simulation programs that can be used to assess the gravitational force law from this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system? If the proposed force law is indeed valid, it should also be applicable to model the behavior of wide binaries. And I would like to know how well (or poorly) it does in this regard.
 
juggler said:
John Anderson who discovered and extensively studied the Pioneer anomaly does not agree with the results of the analysis performed by Turyshev in 2012.
I don't think that's a fair description of the paper you referenced. For example, consider these items from the abstract:

"[W]e are forced to adopt a seemingly arbitrary convention to relate DSN-assumed clock-rates to physical clock-rates for this model. We offer a possible reason for adopting the convention employed in our analysis; however, we remain skeptical."

In other words, the paper is not actually claiming that the proposed model is valid.

"While oscillatory behavior with a yearly period is also predicted for the anomalous clock accelerations of both Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11, the predicted amplitude is an order of magnitude too small when compared with that reported for Pioneer 10."

In other words, the proposed model doesn't match the data for Pioneer 10. Which means, again, that the paper is not claiming that the proposed model is valid.
 
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Why would Anderson publish a paper on the origin of the Pioneer Anomaly in 2015 if he was in agreement with the explanation provided in Turyshev's 2012 paper? He wouldn't. And I do NOT want to go down this rabbit hole about the Pioneer anomaly. Have that argument among yourselves if you like. All I'm asking for is this:

Regardless of your stance on the Pioneer anomaly, the gravitational force law proposed in the paper mentioned in the original post was calibrated based upon the data collected from two binary star systems that have been studied extensively for decades (V541 Cygni and DI Herculis). Based upon this I am asking if there are any available simulation programs that can be used to assess the gravitational force law from this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system? If the proposed force law is indeed valid, it should also be applicable to model the behavior of wide binaries. And I would like to know how well (or poorly) it does in this regard.

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  • #10
juggler said:
Why would Anderson publish a paper on the origin of the Pioneer Anomaly in 2015 if he was in agreement with the explanation provided in Turyshev's 2012 paper?
I couldn't say. You'd have to ask him. But hand-waving arguments on your part are worth a lot less than looking at what the paper actually says.

juggler said:
I do NOT want to go down this rabbit hole about the Pioneer anomaly.
Then why did you bring it up? And why did you reference that paper?
 
  • #11
juggler said:
the gravitational force law proposed in the paper
...claims to be an alternative explanation of the Pioneer Anomaly, among other things. You said so yourself in the OP of this thread. So discussion of whether the Pioneer Anomaly actually needs an alternative explanation is on topic.
 
  • #12
The Pioneer anomaly is not of relevance to the question that was posed. The gravitational force law proposed in the paper mentioned in the original post was calibrated based upon the data collected from two binary star systems that have been studied extensively for decades (V541 Cygni and DI Herculis). Based upon this I am asking if there are any available simulation programs that can be used to assess the gravitational force law from this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system? If the proposed force law is indeed valid, it should also be applicable to model the behavior of wide binaries. And I would like to know how well (or poorly) it does in this regard.
 
  • #13
juggler said:
The Pioneer anomaly is not of relevance to the question that was posed.
Then why did you talk about it in the OP? And in other subsequent posts?

You can't have it both ways. If you don't want to talk about the Pioneer Anomaly at all, then you need to start a new thread that doesn't do that, and only talks about what you actually do want to talk about.

For now I'm closing this thread for moderation.
 
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  • #14
The juggler has left PF now, and after a Mentor discussion this thread will remain closed. Thanks to all for trying to help the OP.
 

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