A Gravitational Analysis of Wide Binaries

[juggler]

TL;DR Summary

Several peer reviewed papers on wide binary star systems conclude that for accelerations below approximately 10^-10 m/s^2 these binary systems do not obey Newton's or Einstein's gravitational theories. The following peer reviewed paper entitled Gravitational Analysis of V541 Cygni, DI Herculis and the Pioneer Anomaly offers an alternative theory. Are there any available simulation programs out there that can be used to assess the gravitational force law in this paper for wide binaries?

Several peer reviewed papers on wide binary star systems conclude that for accelerations below approximately 10^-10 m/s^2 these binary systems do not obey Newton's or Einstein's gravitational theories. The following peer reviewed paper entitled Gravitational Analysis of V541 Cygni, DI Herculuis and the Pioneer Anomaly offers an alternative theory. Are there any available simulation programs out there that can be used to assess the gravitational force law in this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system?

Reardon, A.C. Gravitational analysis of V541 Cygni, DI Herculis, and the Pioneer anomaly. Astrophys Space Sci 336, 369–377 (2011). https://doi.org/10.1007/s10509-011-0789-4

[Moderator's note: PDF attachment deleted. Copyrighted material should be linked to, not attached.]

 

[A.T.]

... Pioneer Anomaly...

Wasn't that resolved by accounting for asymmetric radiation pressure? Was stuff like that accounted for those wide binary star systems?

 

[Jaime Rudas]

Wasn't that resolved by accounting for asymmetric radiation pressure?

Yes, but perhaps that's because the cited paper is from July 2011, while the main paper on asymmetric radiation of the Pioneers is from April 2012.

 

[juggler]

John Anderson who discovered and extensively studied the Pioneer anomaly does not agree with the results of the analysis performed by Turyshev in 2012.

 

[Jaime Rudas]

John Anderson who discovered and extensively studied the Pioneer anomaly does not agree with the results of the analysis performed by Turyshev in 2012.

Do you have a reference that supports this?

 

[juggler]

Yes, I do.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1506.08070

 

[juggler]

Regardless of your stance on the Pioneer anomaly, the gravitational force law proposed in the paper mentioned in the original post was calibrated based upon the data collected from two binary star systems that have been studied extensively for decades (V541 Cygni and DI Herculis). Based upon this I am asking if there are any available simulation programs that can be used to assess the gravitational force law from this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system? If the proposed force law is indeed valid, it should also be applicable to model the behavior of wide binaries. And I would like to know how well (or poorly) it does in this regard.

 

[PeterDonis]

John Anderson who discovered and extensively studied the Pioneer anomaly does not agree with the results of the analysis performed by Turyshev in 2012.

I don't think that's a fair description of the paper you referenced. For example, consider these items from the abstract:

"[W]e are forced to adopt a seemingly arbitrary convention to relate DSN-assumed clock-rates to physical clock-rates for this model. We offer a possible reason for adopting the convention employed in our analysis; however, we remain skeptical."

In other words, the paper is not actually claiming that the proposed model is valid.

"While oscillatory behavior with a yearly period is also predicted for the anomalous clock accelerations of both Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11, the predicted amplitude is an order of magnitude too small when compared with that reported for Pioneer 10."

In other words, the proposed model doesn't match the data for Pioneer 10. Which means, again, that the paper is not claiming that the proposed model is valid.

 

[juggler]

Why would Anderson publish a paper on the origin of the Pioneer Anomaly in 2015 if he was in agreement with the explanation provided in Turyshev's 2012 paper? He wouldn't. And I do NOT want to go down this rabbit hole about the Pioneer anomaly. Have that argument among yourselves if you like. All I'm asking for is this:

Regardless of your stance on the Pioneer anomaly, the gravitational force law proposed in the paper mentioned in the original post was calibrated based upon the data collected from two binary star systems that have been studied extensively for decades (V541 Cygni and DI Herculis). Based upon this I am asking if there are any available simulation programs that can be used to assess the gravitational force law from this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system? If the proposed force law is indeed valid, it should also be applicable to model the behavior of wide binaries. And I would like to know how well (or poorly) it does in this regard.

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[PeterDonis]

Why would Anderson publish a paper on the origin of the Pioneer Anomaly in 2015 if he was in agreement with the explanation provided in Turyshev's 2012 paper?

I couldn't say. You'd have to ask him. But hand-waving arguments on your part are worth a lot less than looking at what the paper actually says.

I do NOT want to go down this rabbit hole about the Pioneer anomaly.

Then why did you bring it up? And why did you reference that paper?

 

[PeterDonis]

the gravitational force law proposed in the paper

...claims to be an alternative explanation of the Pioneer Anomaly, among other things. You said so yourself in the OP of this thread. So discussion of whether the Pioneer Anomaly actually needs an alternative explanation is on topic.

 

[juggler]

The Pioneer anomaly is not of relevance to the question that was posed. The gravitational force law proposed in the paper mentioned in the original post was calibrated based upon the data collected from two binary star systems that have been studied extensively for decades (V541 Cygni and DI Herculis). Based upon this I am asking if there are any available simulation programs that can be used to assess the gravitational force law from this paper for wide binaries and compare the results to the predictions of Newton and Einstein for the same system? If the proposed force law is indeed valid, it should also be applicable to model the behavior of wide binaries. And I would like to know how well (or poorly) it does in this regard.

 

[PeterDonis]

The Pioneer anomaly is not of relevance to the question that was posed.

Then why did you talk about it in the OP? And in other subsequent posts?

You can't have it both ways. If you don't want to talk about the Pioneer Anomaly at all, then you need to start a new thread that doesn't do that, and only talks about what you actually do want to talk about.

For now I'm closing this thread for moderation.

 

[berkeman]

The juggler has left PF now, and after a Mentor discussion this thread will remain closed. Thanks to all for trying to help the OP.