Gravitational force and acceleration in General Relativity.

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The discussion revolves around calculating the gravitational force and acceleration of a 1kg mass near a massive gravitational body using General Relativity, specifically within the context of Schwarzschild geometry. Initial calculations suggest that the proper acceleration of a test mass can be derived from the gravitational gamma factor and the equations of motion, leading to expressions for both coordinate and proper acceleration. Participants debate the validity of simplifying assumptions, such as neglecting angular motion, and the correct application of the Lagrangian to derive these equations. The conversation highlights the complexity of deriving clear answers in General Relativity and the need for precise definitions and calculations. Overall, the thread emphasizes the challenges in obtaining straightforward answers to fundamental questions in gravitational physics.
  • #331
starthaus said:
There is no such thing as "informal" in math. If you redo the last step in your derivation, you will find out the error, it is quite obvious.

This shows how your knowledge of mathematics is limited as well. Not only do we have informal methods in mathematics that are mostly overlooked by mathematical communities, but also there has been a traditional form of mathematics called "Informal mathematics" or "naive mathematics". Consult Google for more info.

AB
 
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  • #332
kev said:
for the colinear vertical (radial) case.

Doesn't work for \gamma=1/\sqrt{1-2m/r}
Only works for \gamma=1/\sqrt{1-(v/c)^2}

I must have told you this a dozen times. Try showing your last step in your derivation and you'll see the mistake immediately..
 
  • #333
kev said:
I was pondering this thread Correction term to Newtons gravitation law. when it occurred to me that we should be be able to answer simple questions like "what does General Relativity predict that the weight of a 1kg mass on the surface of a very massive gravitational body to be?" or "what is the initial acceleration of 1kg mass when released from a short distance above a very massive gravitational body?".

I believe these questions are easily answered if you use the method of frames to find the acceleration of a stationary observer. It is worked out here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_fields_in_general_relativity
 
  • #334
Starthaus, Kev, this seems like the time to disengage. I'm not saying you should agree to disagree, just that this has become one hell of a pissing match. This has strayed so far from the previous meaningful discussion that it is annoying as a newer user reading this thread, then hitting what amounts to a clot upstream.
 
  • #335
kev said:
Others have already correctly stated that the proper acceleration of a particle in freefall is zero by definition, but I accept your challenge for the more general case. This is not a formal derivation or proof. Just my best shot based on my physical understanding of the situation and my interpretation of the equations given by references like mathpages. (i.e. using selective "cut and paste" from the mathpages+hacks.)

For easy visualisation, consider the case of a small rocket descending into a gravitational well, with its thrust (Fo) directed in the opposite direction to the local gravitational acceleration (a'_g) so that the descent acceleration of the rocket at r, as measured by a stationary observer at r, is d^2r'/dt'^2 using his local clocks and rulers. (All primed variables indicate measurements made by a stationary local observer at r in the Schwarzschild coordinates). I can now say:

F_o = \left( \frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} - a'_g \right) m_o

where Fo is the proper force directed upwards and m_o is the rest mass of the rocket .

Dividing both sides by m_o gives the proper acceleration a_o of the rocket as:

a_o = \frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} - a'_g

where positive acceleration is defined here as upwards and negative acceleration means downwards.

A combination of http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-07/6-07.htm" gives the velocity dependent Schwarzschild coordinate gravitational acceleration a_g as:

a_g = - \frac{M}{r^2}(1-2M/r)\left(1-\frac{3(dr/dt)^2}{(1-2M/r)^2}\right)

Assuming the following relationships between the local vertical measurements (dr’, dt’, a’) made by a stationary observer at r and the coordinate measurements (dr, dt, a) made by a Schwarzschild observer at infinity using the gravitational boost factor \gamma_g = 1/\sqrt{(1-2M/r)}:

dr' = dr \; \gamma_g

dt' = dt \; \gamma_g^{-1}

dr'/dt' = dr/dt \; \gamma_g^{2}

a' = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

it is easy to obtain:

a'_g = - \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-3(dr'/dt')^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right)

where dr’/dt’ is the descent velocity of the rocket as it passes radial coordinate r as measured by a stationary observer located at r.

The more general proper acceleration can now be expressed in the form:

a_o = \frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} - a'_g = \frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} + \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-3(dr'/dt')^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right)

When the rocket is holding position at r by using its thrust to hover at r, dr’/dt’ = 0 and d^2r'/dt' ^2 =0 and its proper acceleration is:

a_o = \frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} - a'_g = 0 + \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-3(dr'/dt')^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right) = \frac{M}{r^2}\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}

which is what most people here expect.

In the specific case of freefall only, dr’/dt’ can be calculated using:

\frac{dr'}{dt'} = {\frac{\sqrt{2M (1/r-1/R)}}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}

where R is a constant parameter of the trajectory path representing the height of the apogee and the following relationship is true:

\frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} = - \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-3(dr'/dt')^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right)

When the rocket turns off its engines and falls freely in a vacuum, the proper acceleration of the rocket is:

a_o = \frac{d^2{r}'}{d{t}' ^2} - a'_g = \frac{d^2{r}'}{d{t}' ^2} + \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-3(dr'/dt')^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right) = 0

for all R>2m and r>2m.


All calculations I see above are seamless from a mathematical point of view except that I don't understand the how you manage to get from \frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} = - \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-3(dr'/dt')^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right) to the last equation. Would you mind explaining it to me?

In fact I don't expect to see anything else but zero in front of the proper acceleration of that rocket in free-fall!

AB
 
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  • #336
Geigerclick said:
Starthaus, Kev, this seems like the time to disengage. I'm not saying you should agree to disagree, just that this has become one hell of a pissing match. This has strayed so far from the previous meaningful discussion that it is annoying as a newer user reading this thread, then hitting what amounts to a clot upstream.

You are right.
 
  • #337
starthaus said:
You are right.

Thank you, I'm glad you were not insulted, I meant for that to be reasonable, not intrusive. Your discussion is above my pay grade in either case, so I can only comment on the structure of it, not the content at this point.
 
  • #338
Altabeh said:
All calculations I see above are seamless from a mathematical point of view ...

Thanks Altabeh. You are right that is correct mathematical but I have noticed that there is a minor problem with the physics and should taking the conversion from proper time (t_o) of the moving particle to the local time (t') of the stationary observer at r into account. It so happens that in the particular case of a hovering particle and a particle at apogee the equation is still correct and the equations in post #1 are still correct. It also happens to give the correct result for when the particle is free falling a_o = 0 but inbetween the results are not accurate. In effect:

a' = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

is generally true even when the particle is not stationary at r, but:

a_o = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

is only true if the particle is stationary at r.

Other than this scaling problem, I believe the general idea I used in #318 is the correct way to o to obtain the general equation for proper acceleration. I will try and fix this problem with scaling factor and repost the general solution for when the particle has arbitrary velocity at a r.
Altabeh said:
... except that I don't understand the how you manage to get from \frac{d^2r'}{dt' ^2} = - \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-3(dr'/dt')^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right) to the last equation. Would you mind explaining it to me?

In fact I don't expect to see anything else but zero in front of the proper acceleration of that rocket in free-fall!
AB
This is easy. If I may give a Newtonian analogy. Let us say the result force Fr of two opposing forces Fa and Fb acting on a particle is Fr = Fa-Fb, then when Fa=Fb, then Fr=0 or I can write Fr = Fa - Fb = 0. In effect writing (Fr = Fa - Fb and (Fa = Fb) ) is just a long winded way of writing Fr = 0, but it shows how the zero result is obtained.

In the gravitational acceleration case, proper acceleration can take on any value betwen plus and minus infinity and the case when proper acceleration equals zero is only true when the particle is freefaling making a special case of a more general equation.

Hope that makes some sort of sense.
 
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  • #339
kev said:
dr' = dr \; \gamma_g

dt' = dt \; \gamma_g^{-1}

dr'/dt' = dr/dt \; \gamma_g^{2}

OK
a' = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

No.

a'=\frac{d^2r'}{dt'^2}

a=\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}

\gamma_g=1/\sqrt{1-2M/r}

so you cannot have

a' = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

Do the calculations and you'll find out why. Here, I'll start it for you:

a'=\frac{d^2r'}{dt'^2}=\frac{d}{dt'}(\frac{dr'}{dt'})=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{dr'}{dt'})\frac{dt}{dt'}=...
 
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  • #340
starthaus said:
so you cannot have

a' = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

Do the calculations and you'll find out why. Here, I'll start it for you:

a'=\frac{d^2r'}{dt'^2}=\frac{d}{dt'}(\frac{dr'}{dt'})=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{dr'}{dt'})\frac{dt}{dt'}=...

I have already stated I see there is a problem with my more general solution in #318. You are the calculus expert, so why not make this a cooperative joint effort and post what you know, in the interests of trying to bring this thread to a rapid conclusion and preventing Geigerclick from having a nervous breakdown :wink:
 
  • #341
starthaus said:
OK

No.

a'=\frac{d^2r'}{dt'^2}

a=\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}

\gamma_g=1/\sqrt{1-2M/r}

so you cannot have

a' = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

Do the calculations and you'll find out why. Here, I'll start it for you:

a'=\frac{d^2r'}{dt'^2}=\frac{d}{dt'}(\frac{dr'}{dt'})=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{dr'}{dt'})\frac{dt}{dt'}=...

a&#039;=\frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039;^2}=\frac{d}{dt&#039;}(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;})=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;})\frac{dt}{dt&#039;}=<br /> \gamma_g\frac{d}{dt}(\gamma_g^2\frac{dr}{dt})=\gamma_g^3\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}+2(\gamma_g\frac{dr}{dt})^2\frac{d\gamma_g}{dr}

Contrary to your beliefs, basic calculus shows that a&#039; is not equal to a\gamma^3. Can we close this thread now?
 
  • #342
kev said:
Thanks Altabeh. You are right that is correct mathematical but I have noticed that there is a minor problem with the physics and should taking the conversion from proper time (t_o) of the moving particle to the local time (t') of the stationary observer at r into account. It so happens that in the particular case of a hovering particle and a particle at apogee the equation is still correct and the equations in post #1 are still correct. It also happens to give the correct result for when the particle is free falling a_o = 0 but inbetween the results are not accurate. In effect:

a&#039; = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

is generally true even when the particle is not stationary at r, but:

a_o = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

is only true if the particle is stationary at r.

Other than this scaling problem, I believe the general idea I used in #318 is the correct way to o to obtain the general equation for proper acceleration. I will try and fix this problem with scaling factor and repost the general solution for when the particle has arbitrary velocity at a r.

This is easy. If I may give a Newtonian analogy. Let us say the result force Fr of two opposing forces Fa and Fb acting on a particle is Fr = Fa-Fb, then when Fa=Fb, then Fr=0 or I can write Fr = Fa - Fb = 0. In effect writing (Fr = Fa - Fb and (Fa = Fb) ) is just a long winded way of writing Fr = 0, but it shows how the zero result is obtained.

In the gravitational acceleration case, proper acceleration can take on any value betwen plus and minus infinity and the case when proper acceleration equals zero is only true when the particle is freefaling making a special case of a more general equation.

Hope that makes some sort of sense.

That is not that much easy. Actually I noticed that only at apogee the formula

a&#039; = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

works. If you expand a&#039; in a differential form, you'll figure that

a&#039; = \gamma_g^3[\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}-\frac{2m}{r^3}(r-2m)(1-\frac{1-2m/r}{1-2m/r_0})].

So we have to either abandon this approach or modify it in such a way that the proper acceleration of rocket in free-fall would be zero. I'm still thinking about it...

AB
 
  • #343
I just want to say, since I took the liberty of criticizing this discourse, that it seems to be back in line with what one would hope from intelligent people debating math and science. As a casual observer, thanks to all of you.
 
  • #344
Altabeh said:
That is not that much easy. Actually I noticed that only at apogee the formula

a&#039; = a \; \gamma_g^{3}

works. If you expand a&#039; in a differential form, you'll figure that

a&#039; = \gamma_g^3[\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}-\frac{2m}{r^3}(r-2m)(1-\frac{1-2m/r}{1-2m/r_0})].

So we have to either abandon this approach or modify it in such a way that the proper acceleration of rocket in free-fall would be zero. I'm still thinking about it...

AB

Hi Altabeh,

Could you show me some of the steps you took to obtain this result?

Could you also confirm that you are using the notation that I was using, i.e a' = dr'/dt' for the acceleration measured by a local observer that is stationary at r and a_o for the proper acceleration of the test particle?
 
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  • #345
starthaus said:
a&#039;=\frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039;^2}=\frac{d}{dt&#039;}(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;})=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;})\frac{dt}{dt&#039;}=<br /> \gamma_g\frac{d}{dt}(\gamma_g^2\frac{dr}{dt})=\gamma_g^3\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}+2(\gamma_g\frac{dr}{dt})^2\frac{d\gamma_g}{dr}

OK, thanks for that. It agrees with the expansion given by Altabeh although I am not sure if Altabeh just expanded on your differentiation. Anyway, I will expand on your result in a different way to obtain a result in terms of radial velocity.

a&#039; = a\:\gamma_g^3+2\left(\gamma_g\frac{dr}{dt}\right)^2\frac{d\gamma_g}{dr} = a\:\gamma_g^3+2 \left(\gamma_g\frac{dr}{dt}\right)^2\left( \frac{-M }{c^2r^2}\right)\gamma_g^3 = a\:\gamma_g^3\: - \:\frac{2M}{r^2} \left(\frac{dr}{dt}\right)^2 \gamma_g^5 = a\:\gamma_g^3 -\frac{2M}{r^2} \left(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;}\right)^2 \gamma_g

Now we should be in a position to correct my previous derivation of the general expression for proper radial acceleration.
The following is a rehash of my first attempt in #318 (using units of G=c=1):

=================================================


For easy visualisation, consider the case of a small rocket descending into a gravitational well, with its thrust (Fo) directed in the opposite direction to the local gravitational acceleration (a&#039;_g) so that the descent acceleration of the rocket at r, as measured by a stationary observer at r, is d^2r&#039;/dt&#039;^2 using his local clocks and rulers. (All primed variables indicate measurements made by a stationary local observer at r in the Schwarzschild coordinates). I can now say:

F_o = \left( \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g \right) m_o

where Fo is the proper force directed upwards and m_o is the rest mass of the rocket .

Dividing both sides by m_o gives the proper acceleration a_o of the rocket as:

a_o = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g

where positive acceleration is defined here as upwards and negative acceleration means downwards.

A combination of http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-07/6-07.htm" gives the velocity dependent Schwarzschild coordinate gravitational acceleration a_g as:

a_g = - \frac{M}{r^2}(1-2M/r)\left(1-\frac{3(dr/dt)^2}{(1-2M/r)^2}\right) = - \frac{M}{r^2}(1-2M/r)(1-3(dr&#039;/dt&#039;)^2)

Assuming the following relationships between the local vertical measurements (dr’, dt’, a’) made by a stationary observer at r and the coordinate measurements (dr, dt, a) made by a Schwarzschild observer at infinity using the gravitational boost factor \gamma_g = 1/\sqrt{(1-2M/r)}:

dr&#039; = dr \; \gamma_g

dt&#039; = dt \; \gamma_g^{-1}

dr&#039;/dt&#039; = dr/dt \; \gamma_g^{2}

a&#039; = a\: \gamma_g^3 -\frac{2M}{r^2} \left(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;}\right)^2 \gamma_g

it is fairly easy to obtain:

a&#039;_g = - \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-(dr&#039;/dt&#039;)^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right)

where dr’/dt’ is the descent velocity of the rocket as it passes radial coordinate r, as measured by a stationary observer located at r.

The more general proper acceleration can now be expressed in the form:

a_o = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} + \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-(dr&#039;/dt&#039;)^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right)

When the rocket is holding position at r by using its thrust to hover at r, dr’/dt’ = 0 and d^2r&#039;/dt&#039; ^2 =0 and its proper acceleration is:

a_o = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g = \frac{M}{r^2}\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}

which is the expected result.

When the rocket turns off its engines and falls freely in a vacuum, the proper acceleration of the rocket is:

a_o = \frac{d^2{r}&#039;}{d{t}&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g = 0

for all R>2m and r>2m.

That, I hope is now a correct result, but I can not find any references to check it against for the case where the particle is neither free falling nor stationary.
 
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  • #346
kev said:
Hi Altabeh,

1- Could you show me some of the steps you took to obtain this result?

2- Could you also confirm that you are using the notation that I was using, i.e a' = dr'/dt' for the acceleration measured by a local observer that is stationary at r and a_o for the proper acceleration of the test particle?

Hi and sorry for being late to reply to your post. I've had a really busy week.

(I just assigned a number to each of these questions so that I can answer them in order.) In the following I will, for simplicity, drop the index g of Lorentz factors.

1- First we expand a&#039; in the following form:

a&#039;=\frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039;^2}=\frac{d}{dt&#039;} \frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;}=\frac{dt}{dt&#039;}\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;})=\gamma\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{dr}{dt}\gamma^{2})=\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}\gamma^3+\gamma\frac{dr}{dt}\frac{d}{dt}(\gamma^{2}).

Now from the fact that the gravitational Lorentz factor is written by

\gamma=\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-2m/r(t)}},

one would get

\frac{d}{dt}(\gamma^2)=2\gamma\frac{d}{dt}(\gamma)=2\gamma\frac{-m}{r^2}\frac{1}{\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-2m/r(t)}}(1-2m/r)^2}\frac{dr}{dt}=-\frac{2m}{r^2}\frac{dr}{dt }\gamma^4.

Introducing this into the very first equation yields

a&#039;=\gamma^3(\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}+\frac{-2m}{r^2}[\frac{dr}{dt}]^2\gamma^2).

Since the radial velocity of a rocket starting at r_0=r(t_0) to fall with a zero initial velocity (dr/dt)_0=0 near a gravitating body is given by (c=1)

\frac{dr}{dt}=\frac{r-2m}{r}\sqrt{1-\frac{1-2m/r}{1-2m/r_0}},

therefore the penult equation must be

a&#039;=\gamma^3(\frac{d^2r}{dt^2}-\frac{2m}{r^3}({r-2m})(1-\frac{1-2m/r}{1-2m/r_0}),

which is the equation from an early post by me.

2- By looking at the coordinate velocity I'm using above you can see that all measurements related to the coordinate pair (r,t) are done by a Schwarzschild observer at infinity; and that an observer being locally stationary at r measures the coordinate pair (r&#039;,t&#039;). About the proper acceleration, since I've not yet made use of any symbol for it, I'll use the same notation as yours.

AB
 
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  • #347
kev said:
OK, thanks for that.


Yeah, took only about 200 posts to convince you of your error.



When the rocket turns off its engines and falls freely in a vacuum, the proper acceleration of the rocket is:

a_o = \frac{d^2{r}&#039;}{d{t}&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g = 0

You were supposed to derive the above, not to put in the answer by hand. How do you derive it?
 
  • #348
kev said:
OK, thanks for that. It agrees with the expansion given by Altabeh although I am not sure if Altabeh just expanded on your differentiation. Anyway, I will expand on your result in a different way to obtain a result in terms of radial velocity.

a&#039; = a\:\gamma_g^3+2\left(\gamma_g\frac{dr}{dt}\right)^2\frac{d\gamma_g}{dr} = a\:\gamma_g^3+2 \left(\gamma_g\frac{dr}{dt}\right)^2\left( \frac{-M }{c^2r^2}\right)\gamma_g^3 = a\:\gamma_g^3\: - \:\frac{2M}{r^2} \left(\frac{dr}{dt}\right)^2 \gamma_g^5 = a\:\gamma_g^3 -\frac{2M}{r^2} \left(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;}\right)^2 \gamma_g

Now we should be in a position to correct my previous derivation of the general expression for proper radial acceleration.
The following is a rehash of my first attempt in #318 (using units of G=c=1):

=================================================


For easy visualisation, consider the case of a small rocket descending into a gravitational well, with its thrust (Fo) directed in the opposite direction to the local gravitational acceleration (a&#039;_g) so that the descent acceleration of the rocket at r, as measured by a stationary observer at r, is d^2r&#039;/dt&#039;^2 using his local clocks and rulers. (All primed variables indicate measurements made by a stationary local observer at r in the Schwarzschild coordinates). I can now say:

F_o = \left( \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g \right) m_o

where Fo is the proper force directed upwards and m_o is the rest mass of the rocket .

Dividing both sides by m_o gives the proper acceleration a_o of the rocket as:

a_o = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g

where positive acceleration is defined here as upwards and negative acceleration means downwards.

A combination of http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-07/6-07.htm" gives the velocity dependent Schwarzschild coordinate gravitational acceleration a_g as:

a_g = - \frac{M}{r^2}(1-2M/r)\left(1-\frac{3(dr/dt)^2}{(1-2M/r)^2}\right) = - \frac{M}{r^2}(1-2M/r)(1-3(dr&#039;/dt&#039;)^2)

Assuming the following relationships between the local vertical measurements (dr’, dt’, a’) made by a stationary observer at r and the coordinate measurements (dr, dt, a) made by a Schwarzschild observer at infinity using the gravitational boost factor \gamma_g = 1/\sqrt{(1-2M/r)}:

dr&#039; = dr \; \gamma_g

dt&#039; = dt \; \gamma_g^{-1}

dr&#039;/dt&#039; = dr/dt \; \gamma_g^{2}

a&#039; = a\: \gamma_g^3 -\frac{2M}{r^2} \left(\frac{dr&#039;}{dt&#039;}\right)^2 \gamma_g

it is fairly easy to obtain:

a&#039;_g = - \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-(dr&#039;/dt&#039;)^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right)

where dr’/dt’ is the descent velocity of the rocket as it passes radial coordinate r, as measured by a stationary observer located at r.

The more general proper acceleration can now be expressed in the form:

a_o = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} + \frac{M}{r^2}\left(\frac{1-(dr&#039;/dt&#039;)^2}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}\right)

When the rocket is holding position at r by using its thrust to hover at r, dr’/dt’ = 0 and d^2r&#039;/dt&#039; ^2 =0 and its proper acceleration is:

a_o = \frac{d^2r&#039;}{dt&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g = \frac{M}{r^2}\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-2M/r}}

which is the expected result.

When the rocket turns off its engines and falls freely in a vacuum, the proper acceleration of the rocket is:

a_o = \frac{d^2{r}&#039;}{d{t}&#039; ^2} - a&#039;_g = 0

for all R>2m and r>2m.

That, I hope is now a correct result, but I can not find any references to check it against for the case where the particle is neither free falling nor stationary.

Sounds flawless. If the particle is neither freely falling nor stationary, then there must be an external force other than gravitational applied to it to be able to move that way which is the case when the right-hand side of the geodesic equations is non-zero. Until we don't know what this force is, there is not going to be any known formula for the related equations of motion.

By the way, I'm preparing a similar proof for the coordinate radial acceleration given in one of the starthaus's blog entries.

AB
 
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  • #349
starthaus said:
You were supposed to derive the above, not to put in the answer by hand. How do you derive it?

No derivation is needed unless knowing the fact that the acceleration measured by the stationary observer at r in free-fall is just locally the acceleration caused by gravitational force.

Yeah, took only about 200 posts to convince you of your error.

Now what about you to correct this big error after spending a couple of weeks? LOL

AB
 
  • #350
Altabeh said:
No derivation is needed unless knowing the fact that the acceleration measured by the stationary observer at r in free-fall is just locally the acceleration caused by gravitational force.



Now what about you to correct this big error after spending a couple of weeks? LOL

AB

I think Altabeh is the winner in this game. :wink:

I realize from reading this thread, how infuriating this has been for kev and starthaus, but I for one learned a great watching this back and forth. 200 interesting posts from the standpoint of this hobbyist. :)
 
  • #351
starthaus said:
Yeah, took only about 200 posts to convince you of your error.

Actually you have spent over 300 posts since post #2 moving the goal posts from where they were set in #1. This is known as derailing the thread and is against the rules of this forum. However I was also interested in the more general result so I let it go, but you seem to have a knack for turning what could be said in in 30 posts into 300 posts by being secretive, confrontational and evasive.

Having said that, I have learned a lot in thread and I think others that have the stamina to read through all the background noise of the bickering ( like Geigerclick ) have found it instructive too. You too have learned some things (or you should of) such as that the Schwarzschild coordinate acceleration is not greater than proper acceleration and that a free falling particle does not have non-zero proper acceleration.
 
  • #352
kev said:
Actually you have spent over 300 posts since post #2 moving the goal posts from where they were set in #1. This is known as derailing the thread and is against the rules of this forum. However I was also interested in the more general result so I let it go, but you seem to have a knack for turning what could be said in in 30 posts into 300 posts by being secretive, confrontational and evasive.

No, I told you from post 2 that you didn't know what you were talking about claiming that a_0=a\gamma^3
 
  • #353
starthaus said:
No, I told you from post 2 that you didn't know what you were talking about claiming that a_0=a\gamma^3

It was valid in the context of #1 but I have conceded that it is not valid in the more general case (outside the context of the OP).
 
  • #354
kev said:
It was valid in the context of #1 but I have conceded that it is not valid in the more general case (outside the context of the OP).

Yes, it took you up to post 324 or so and even after I showed you the calculus, you were still arguing.
Now, the formula for coordinate acceleration in post 1 is also incorrect, I showed you how to derive it some time ago. Agreed?
 
  • #355
starthaus said:
Now, the formula for coordinate acceleration in post 1 is also incorrect, I showed you how to derive it some time ago. Agreed?

I was not aware there was still any dispute about that. I still stand by what I said in #1 in the context that it was given in i.e:

kev said:
... the initial coordinate acceleration of a test mass released at r is (according to the observer at infinity) is:

a= \frac{GM}{r^2}\left(1-\frac{2GM}{rc^2}\right)

This is the coordinate acceleration of a free falling particle when it is at its apogee at r. Rofle2, myself and DaleSpam all agreed it is correct and Dalespam did a thorough derivation using four vectors and Rofle2 did a thorough job of showing how it agrees with the equations given by Kevin Brown and also demonstrated that the derivation given in mathpages by Prof. Brown are pefectly valid (something you disputed). We have even shown you how your own equations agree with coordinate acceleration equation given in #1. I do not see what there is left to dispute.
 
  • #356
kev said:
I was not aware there was still any dispute about that. I still stand by what I said in #1 in the context that it was given in i.e:
This is the coordinate acceleration of a free falling particle when it is at its apogee at r. Rofle2, myself and DaleSpam all agreed it is correct and Dalespam did a thorough derivation using four vectors

No, Dalespam and I have worked on deriving the proper (not coordinate) acceleration at apogee by using covariant derivatives. I used the same method as one of the ways to calculate proper acceleration in rotating frames.

and Rofle2 did a thorough job of showing how it agrees with the equations given by Kevin Brown and also demonstrated that the derivation given in mathpages by Prof. Brown are pefectly valid (something you disputed). We have even shown you how your own equations agree with coordinate acceleration equation given in #1. I do not see what there is left to dispute.

For the limited context yes. For the general case , no.
This is the problem with cutting and pasting from websites instead of deriving.
Well, at least now you know how to derive the general formula for coordinate acceleration, correct?
You also know not to try to get the proper acceleration by multiplying the coordinate acceleration by \gamma^3, correct?
 
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  • #357
starthaus said:
No, Dalespam and I have worked on deriving the proper (not coordinate) acceleration at apogee by using covariant derivatives. I used the same method as one of the ways to calculate proper acceleration in rotating frames.

This is not true. DaleSpam calculated the coordinate acceleration of a momentarily stationary particle at r, in post #155 quoted here:

DaleSpam said:
OK, but the truth is that I am an expert in Mathematica :smile:, not 4-vectors. I will use the metric, Christoffel symbols, etc. given https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2712746&postcount=38". The worldline of a particle moving only in the radial direction in these coordinates is given by:
\mathbf X = (t,r,0,0)

Where r is now a function of t.

Then we can derive the four-velocity as follows:
\mathbf U = \frac{d \mathbf X}{d \tau} = c \frac{d \mathbf X}{ds} = c \frac{d \mathbf X}{dt} \frac{dt}{ds} = \left(\frac{c}{\sqrt{-\frac{c^2 R}{r}+c^2+\frac{r \left(r&#039;\right)^2}{R-r}}},\frac{c<br /> r&#039;}{\sqrt{-\frac{c^2 R}{r}+c^2+\frac{r \left(r&#039;\right)^2}{R-r}}},0,0\right)

Where the ' denotes differentiation wrt the coordinate t.

And we can verify that the norm of the four-velocity is equal to:
||\mathbf U||^2=U_{\mu} U^{\mu}= g_{\mu\nu} U^{\nu} U^{\mu} = c^2

Now it gets ugly. We can derive the four-acceleration as follows:
A^{\mu}=\frac{dU^{\mu}}{d\tau}+\Gamma^{\mu}_{\nu\lambda}U^{\nu}U^{\lambda} =
\left(\frac{c^2 r&#039; \left(c^2 R (R-r)^2+2 r^3 (r-R) r&#039;&#039;-3 r^2 R<br /> \left(r&#039;\right)^2\right)}{2 \left(c^2 (R-r)^2-r^2<br /> \left(r&#039;\right)^2\right)^2},\frac{c^4 (R-r)^2 \left(c^2 R (R-r)^2+2 r^3 (r-R)<br /> r&#039;&#039;-3 r^2 R \left(r&#039;\right)^2\right)}{2 \left(c^2 r (R-r)^2-r^3<br /> \left(r&#039;\right)^2\right)^2},0,0\right)

So, we can set all of these equal to 0 to get the geodesic equation describing an object in free-fall along a radial trajectory. Doing so and solving for r'' gives
r&#039;&#039;=\frac{c^2 R (R-r)^2-3 r^2 R \left(r&#039;\right)^2}{2 r^3 (R-r)}

For a momentarily stationary particle r'=0 so
r&#039;&#039;=\frac{GM}{r^2}\left(\frac{2GM}{c^2r}-1 \right)

where I have substituted back in for R.
...

DaleSpams formula agrees with the one I gave in #1 and not with the formula you gave in #96 quoted here:

starthaus said:
... That's too bad, if you end up buying Rindler, you will find out that, contrary to your post 1 (and to your incorrect claims above),

\vec{f} = \frac{GM}{r^2}\left(1-\frac{2GM}{rc^2}\right)^{-1}

is indeed the coordinate force per unit mass. You can multiply by m_0 all by yourself. ...

Are you still defending this formula that you incorrectly extrapolated from a Rindler text?

We have already established that Rindler never directly gave any equation for the coordinate acceleration.
 
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  • #358
kev said:
This is not true. DaleSpam calculated the coordinate acceleration of a momentarily stationary particle at r, in post #155 quoted here:

I was referring to post 38 (the derivation of proper acceleration at apogee)

a_0=-\frac{m/r_0^2}{\sqrt{1-2m/r_0}}
Are you still defending this formula that you incorrectly extrapolated from a Rindler text?
It was a good attempt at teaching you how to derive (instead of copying) formulas. It worked fine for teaching you how to derive the proper acceleration, right?
. I have derived the complete formula for coordinate acceleration, it is in the blog, you even quoted it a few times.
Here, to refresh your memory:

a=\frac{m}{r^2}(1-2m/r)(2-3\frac{1-2m/r}{1-2m/r_0})

At apogee it reduces to the formula derived via covariant differentiation in post 155. The covariant method cannot calculate the general formula for coordinate acceleration, the lagrangian method I developed does. Are we on the same page now?
 
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  • #359
starthaus said:
That is proper acceleration, you seem not to know what covariant differentiation produces.

You are wrong. DaleSpan is answering the question "What is the coordinate accelertion?" https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2734621&postcount=155"as you will see if you read it again.

The derivation of proper time is given by DaleSpam in #38 quoted here:
DaleSpam said:
Finally, the norm of the four-acceleration, which is equal to the magnitude of the proper acceleration, is given by:
-||\mathbf A||^2= -A_{\mu} A^{\mu}= -g_{\mu\nu} A^{\nu} A^{\mu} = \frac{c^4 R^2}{4 r^4 (1-R/r)} = \left( \frac{GM}{r^2}\left(1-\frac{2GM}{rc^2}\right)^{-\frac{1}{2}} \right)^2

and this agrees with the equation for proper acceleration given in #1.

starthaus said:
I have derived the complete formula for coordinate acceleration, it is in the blog, you even quoted it a few times.
Here, to refresh your memory:

a=\frac{m}{r^2}(1-2m/r)(2-3\frac{1-2m/r}{1-2m/r_0})

Several people have already shown you that if a particle is at apogee and r= r_o then your equation reduces to

a=\frac{m}{r^2}(1-2m/r)

in total agreement with #1 and yet you say the formual in #1 is wrong??

Your blog formula does not agree with the coordinate acceleration formula you claimed you derived from the Rindler text using potentials in #96.

Do you now agree that your derivation is #96 is wrong?

Clearly either your blog formula or your #96 formula is wrong, as they do not agree.
 
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  • #360

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