Gravitational Potential Energy & Mass Change: Andrew's Question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between gravitational potential energy and mass change when two masses, M and m, are separated. Participants explore the implications of work done on the system and its effects on mass, referencing concepts from both classical and relativistic physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Andrew posits that separating two masses increases the system's mass in accordance with e=mc², drawing an analogy to chemical or nuclear binding energy.
  • One participant suggests that for the question to be valid, the masses must be treated as point masses, and questions the source of energy used to separate them, indicating that mass change depends on whether energy was supplied from within or outside the system.
  • Andrew clarifies that the energy was intended to be supplied from outside the system.
  • Another participant asserts that if treated as point masses, the mass of the system increases by W/c², where W is the work done in separating the masses.
  • This same participant also notes that the mass of a gravitationally bound system is less than the sum of the individual masses, and that separating them reduces the binding energy deficit by W/c².

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conditions under which mass change occurs, particularly regarding the source of energy used to separate the masses. There is no consensus on the implications of work done on the mass of the system.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the need for assumptions about point mass treatment and the source of energy, which may affect the conclusions drawn about mass change.

andrew s 1905
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TL;DR
Does the work done in separating two masses increase their mass in accordance with e=mc^2
If I start with two, otherwise isolated, masses M and m initially together and do work to separate them then the work done, I assume, goes into the gravitational binding energy between them. Will the system of mass M and m have increased in mass due to this in accordance with e=mc^2?

I believe yes as it is broadly analogous to chemical or nuclear binding.

If I am wrong please provide some pointers in the right direction.

Thanks Andrew
PS this is not a homework question I am 70 and not formally studying it's for personal interest.
 
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I think for this question to make sense you need to be far enough away from the masses for them to be treated as a single point mass at all times. Otherwise you can't really characterise the gravitational field in terms of "the mass", since it depends on the mass distribution even in Newtonian gravity.

But then you run into the problem of where the energy came from to move the masses apart. Was it already there, e.g. in the form of rocket fuel? Or was it supplied from outside, e.g. by shining a laser on to a solar sail on one of the masses? In the first case I would not expect the overall mass to change because no energy was added to the system, but in the second I would expect it to change because energy was supplied.
 
Thanks, it was intended to be very simplified and I did intend the energy to be supplied from outside the system. Regards Andrew
 
Last edited:
andrew s 1905 said:
Will the system of mass M and m have increased in mass due to this in accordance with e=mc^2?
Assuming we are working with point masses, the mass of the system is greater than ##M+m## and it increased by an amount ##W/c^2##, where ##W## is the work you did separating them.
 
Mister T said:
Assuming we are working with point masses, the mass of the system is greater than ##M+m## and it increased by an amount ##W/c^2##, where ##W## is the work you did separating them.
If we are treating gravitational potential energy has having a mass equivalent then...

The mass of a gravitationally bound system will be less than the sum ##M+m##. But after being separated by the applied work, the energy deficit ("binding energy") is reduced by an increment of ##W/c^2##.
 

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