Gravity distortion at the center of a massive object?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of gravity and its effects at the center of massive objects, such as stars and planets. Participants explore concepts of time dilation, spatial distortion, and the implications of gravitational fields on measurements of length and time, with references to general relativity and specific geometrical models.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the nature of gravity at the center of massive objects, suggesting that time runs slowest there compared to the surface or distant observers, while noting that a person at the center perceives their own clock ticking normally.
  • Another participant affirms that gravitational fields can affect the perceived size of objects to distant observers, introducing the concept of proper distances being influenced by gravity.
  • A participant discusses the relationship between real physical distance and coordinate distance in the context of Schwarzschild geometry, indicating that measurements can vary based on the observer's position relative to the mass.
  • There is a suggestion that a long ruler placed through a star would appear shortened due to cumulative spatial distortion, although this effect is nuanced and varies with location.
  • One participant challenges the terminology of "length contraction" in the context of gravitational fields, arguing that proper lengths remain constant regardless of gravitational potential, and emphasizes the role of simultaneity in measurements.
  • A later reply proposes a hypothetical scenario involving a hollow cavity at the center of a planet, suggesting that clocks would run slower inside the cavity compared to the surface, and raises questions about how distances would be perceived in such a setup.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of spatial distortion and the terminology used to describe gravitational effects on length measurements. There is no consensus on whether the effects should be classified as length contraction or if they arise from coordinate transformations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these concepts in various scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence of measurements on the choice of simultaneity convention and the complexities involved in relating local and global metrics in curved spacetime. The discussion includes assumptions about the nature of the massive objects and the gravitational fields involved.

  • #31
WannabeNewton said:
What Carroll wrote down in those notes is definitely not what Schutz has. In fact Schutz has the exact same interior solution as the one given by Padmanabhan for a constant density star. Both have ##m(r) = 4\pi \rho r^3/3##,
##g_{rr} = e^{2\Lambda} = (1 - 2m(r)/r)^{-1}##,
and ##e^{\Phi} = \frac{3}{2}(1 - 2M/R)^{1/2} - \frac{1}{2}(1 - 2Mr^2/R^3)^{1/2}## where ##g_{tt} = e^{2\Phi}##.

This solution of course makes perfect sense.
OK, assuming that ##(1 - 2m(r)/r) = (1 - 2mr^2/R^3)##, that appears to be basically the standard interior Schwarzschild solution given by George Jones that I linked to in #10.

If that is the case then the Shutz/ standard interior Schwarzschild metric can be stated as:

d\tau^{2}=-\left( \frac{3}{2}\sqrt{1-\frac{2M}{R}}-\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{1-\frac{2Mr^{2}}{R^{3}}}\right) ^{2}dt^{2}+\left( 1-\frac{2Mr^{2}}{R^{3}}\right) ^{-1}dr^{2}+r^{2} d\Omega ^{2}

or alternatively as:

d\tau^{2}=-\left( \frac{3}{2}\sqrt{1-\frac{2M}{R}}-\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{1-\frac{2M(r)}{r}}\right) ^{2}dt^{2}+\left( 1-\frac{2M(r)}{r}\right) ^{-1}dr^{2}+r^{2} d\Omega ^{2}

Does that seem reasonable?

P.S. From the second form it is obvious that the time dilation is constant everywhere within the cavity.
 
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  • #32
yuiop said:
This formula is in fact the same as the formula I linked to in post #10 although it is heavily disguised. i.e. it is the standard interior Schwarzschild metric with homogeneous density.
That's true, but only at the point where A is taken to be a constant. The framework would cover A being a function of r and, and then A becomes related to density variation.
yuiop said:
I agree that the Carroll equation contradicts the regular interior Schwarzschild metric. However, in its favour, Carroll suggests it is backed by Schutz, which is normally a reliable source. Does anyone have the Schutz text? Also, the Caroll metric clearly indicates that the spacetime inside a cavity is flat which I have seen claimed many times.
It contradicts physical plausibility. For a static solution where a potential can be introduced, gravitational time dilation is determined by potential. This metric then implies that you have to apply work to push matter down a tube through the star, and free fall would be upward. Absurd is not too strong a word for that.
yuiop said:
Does your metric show that the spacetime inside a cavity is Minkowskian? Does your metric match the exterior vacuum Schwarzschild metric at the outer surface of the massive body?
Yes, Peter's does, as long as J(r) becomes constant inside the shell, which is the required by plausibility anyway. For the outside, J(r) has to match the exterior SC value at the outer surface.
 
  • #33
yuiop said:
Does your metric show that the spacetime inside a cavity is Minkowskian?

Yes. Inside a cavity, ##m(r) = 0##, so the only term in the line element that is not explicitly Minkowski is ##g_{tt}##, and you can rescale the time coordinate to make ##g_{tt} = -1## inside the cavity.

[Edit: technically, you also have to prove that ##J(r)## is constant inside the cavity, but this is easy; see my response to PAllen.]

yuiop said:
Does your metric match the exterior vacuum Schwarzschild metric at the outer surface of the massive body?

Yes; if you work out what ##J(r)## is at the outer surface of an isolated body surrounded by vacuum, you will obtain

$$
J(r) = 1 - \frac{2M}{r}
$$

where ##M## is the total mass of the body.

yuiop said:
Can you for example state the time dilation when dr=dΩ=0 , m=1, the outer surface radius of the massive object is R=18/8 using units of G=c-1 when :

1) r=R=18/8
2) r=0 and
3) r = R/2 = 9/8?

Sure; this is just the case that Einstein worked out as the minimum possible radius for a body in static equilibrium. He did it using the same application of the EFE that I used in the blog post, though he didn't use the same notation that I used. (Technically, the pressure increases without bound as ##r \rightarrow 0## and ##g_{tt}## becomes zero at some point in the solution, so this case is not actually physically possible; it's a limiting case.)

yuiop said:
Also, in your blog does s represent stress and p pressure, or does p represent density?

##p## is radial stress, and ##s## is tangential stress. In the case of a perfect fluid, ##p = s## and the stress is normally referred to as the (isotropic) pressure.
 
  • #34
PAllen said:
Yes, Peter's does, as long as J(r) becomes constant inside the shell

This is guaranteed by the equation for ##dJ / dr##; inside the cavity, ##m = 0## and ##p = 0## so we must have ##dJ / dr = 0##.
 

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