Group like operations that are not associative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of groups in mathematics, specifically exploring the idea of operations that are not associative but still fulfill the criteria of having an identity element and inverses. Participants are interested in examples of such operations, which they refer to as "almost-groups," with a particular focus on their relevance to Lie groups and coordinate transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant defines a group based on three properties: associativity, existence of an identity element, and existence of inverses, and questions whether an operation can exist that meets the latter two without being associative.
  • The same participant expresses a desire for examples of non-associative operations, particularly in the context of Lie groups and coordinate transformations.
  • Another participant introduces the octonions as a potential example of a non-associative structure.
  • A link to a related discussion on non-associative operations with an identity is provided, suggesting that there may be existing examples or theories relevant to the inquiry.
  • One participant reiterates the difficulty in understanding why coordinate transformations must be associative, noting their own vague intuitive ideas on the matter.
  • Another participant explains that for coordinate transformations, the operation is function composition, which is associative by definition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the existence of non-associative operations that meet the other group criteria. There are multiple viewpoints regarding the necessity of associativity in coordinate transformations, with some participants questioning it while others assert its validity.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the existence of non-associative operations that still qualify as groups, and there are unresolved aspects regarding the intuitive understanding of associativity in the context of coordinate transformations.

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A group can be defined by the following three properties. (Source: wikipedia)

In mathematics, a group is a set and an operation that combines any two elements of the set to produce a third element of the set, in such a way that the operation is associative, an identity element exists and every element has an inverse.

Is there any example of an operation that fails the associativity test, but meets the other two tests? I'll refer to this hypothetical entity as an almost-group for the purposes of this post lacking any knowledge of a better name. While my specific motivation is in Lie groups, an example of such an operation that is a finite almost-group but not associative would be helpful.

The motivating question is just how intuitively obvious is it that coordinate transformations must form a Lie group. Intuitively, it's obvious that the identity transformation must exist, and the requirement that coordinate transformations be invertible also seems intuitive, but it's less intuitive why a coordinate transformation absolutely must be associative. That said, I can't think of any counterexamples that are not associative. I have some vague intuitive ideas why a coordinate transformation should be associative, but they're a bit fuzzy and I couldn't express them well.

While the motivational idea is about Lie "almost-groups", a discreete version would also be helpful to guide my intuition.

Note: an answer at the A level is acceptable, but I'd prefer that it be kept to the I level if at all possible. If there is an A-level answer readily available and it'd be too much work to dumb it down to the I-level, it'd be better to have the A-level answer than none at all.
 
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pervect said:
A group can be defined by the following three properties. (Source: wikipedia)
Is there any example of an operation that fails the associativity test, but meets the other two tests? I'll refer to this hypothetical entity as an almost-group for the purposes of this post lacking any knowledge of a better name. While my specific motivation is in Lie groups, an example of such an operation that is a finite almost-group but not associative would be helpful.

The motivating question is just how intuitively obvious is it that coordinate transformations must form a Lie group. Intuitively, it's obvious that the identity transformation must exist, and the requirement that coordinate transformations be invertible also seems intuitive, but it's less intuitive why a coordinate transformation absolutely must be associative. That said, I can't think of any counterexamples that are not associative. I have some vague intuitive ideas why a coordinate transformation should be associative, but they're a bit fuzzy and I couldn't express them well.

While the motivational idea is about Lie "almost-groups", a discreete version would also be helpful to guide my intuition.

Note: an answer at the A level is acceptable, but I'd prefer that it be kept to the I level if at all possible. If there is an A-level answer readily available and it'd be too much work to dumb it down to the I-level, it'd be better to have the A-level answer than none at all.
Say hello to the octonions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octonion
 
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pervect said:
... but it's less intuitive why a coordinate transformation absolutely must be associative. That said, I can't think of any counterexamples that are not associative. I have some vague intuitive ideas why a coordinate transformation should be associative, but they're a bit fuzzy and I couldn't express them well.
For any coordinate transformation, the "multiplication" is function composition ##(f \circ g)(\textbf{x}) = f(g(\textbf{x}))##. The associative law ##(f \circ g) \circ h = f \circ (g \circ h) ## follows by just plugging in the definition.
 
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