Groups and orthogonal matrices question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the problem of finding an nxn matrix X that can transform two given non-orthogonal matrices A and B into orthogonal matrices through conjugation. Participants explore whether this can be achieved without specific knowledge of the group generated by A and B, and they consider the implications of group theory and linear algebra in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to determine a matrix X such that X-1AX and X-1BX are orthogonal, emphasizing the lack of need for special knowledge of the group.
  • Another participant suggests that matrices are orthogonal if their product equals the zero matrix, which implies a need to understand the group's multiplication table.
  • A different participant clarifies that a matrix M is orthogonal if M-1 equals its transpose, Mt.
  • One participant interprets the problem as potentially solvable through simultaneous equations or group theory, noting that the mapping defined by f(Y) = X^{-1} Y X is an isomorphism between groups.
  • Discussion includes the idea that the group of orthogonal matrices has been extensively studied, and that finite groups may simplify the problem.
  • Another participant expresses interest in the case of finite groups, mentioning the alternating group A5 and its relation to permutation matrices, which are orthogonal.
  • One participant raises uncertainty about whether the focus should be on simultaneous equations or group theory, and whether a general solution is sought or just for specific matrices.
  • Another participant expresses a preference for a general solution using linear algebra or simultaneous equations, hoping it would apply to any initial matrices.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to the problem, with differing opinions on the utility of group theory versus simultaneous equations, and whether a general solution exists.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the problem, including the potential need for knowledge of group properties and the implications of finite versus infinite groups. There is also mention of the representation theory of groups, which may relate to the discussion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying group theory, linear algebra, or matrix representations, particularly in the context of orthogonal matrices and their applications in finite groups.

vr88
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Let A and B be nxn matrices which generate a group under matrix multiplication. Assume A and B are not orthogonal. How can I determine an nxn matrix X such that X-1AX and X-1BX are both orthogonal matrices? Is it possible to do this without any special knowledge of the group in question?
 
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If I understand you well, matrices M,M' are orthogonal if MM'=0 , where 0 is the

multiplicative 0 matrix. Then you need to check that the product of your matrices

is the zero matrix in your group. So at least to that extent (knowing the

0 element in your group, and the multiplication table to verify the product

equals the zero element) , you need to know your group.

Is that what you meant?
 
I mean that a matrix M is orthogonal if M-1=Mt.
 
I don't know the answer to your question. My interpretation of what you are asking is: "Can I set up a bunch of simultaneous equations and solve for a matrix X [/tex] so that conjugation by X will map two given matrices to orthogonal matrices? - or must I resort to group theory?&quot;. <br /> <br /> I suspect that if it can be done by group theory, there would be a way to do it with simultaneous equations of some sort. However, it might be simpler to take some hints from group theory.<br /> <br /> The mapping defined by f(Y) = X^{-1} Y X is an isomorphism from the group G generated by A and B to the group W generated by P = X^{-1} A X and Q = X^{-1} B X, which is a group of orthogonal matrices. <br /> <br /> The groups of n by n orthogonal matrices have been much studied and so have their subgroups. W must be one of these subgroups. It must be finitely generated. That narrows down the list of possible &quot;targets&quot; for the mapping f. If the group G happened to be finite (in addition to being finitely generated) that would greatly simplify matters. Finite groups are isomorphic to permuation groups. Are the matrices for permuation groups orthogonal matrices?
 
Stephen- That's essentially what I'm looking for. I am more interested in the case of finite groups. I don't know how much permutations help, though the permutation matrices are orthogonal. For example, if G=A5 is the alternating group on 5 points, and I have two 3x3 matrices which generate this group. I'm not sure how to use permutations to find two orthogonal 3x3 matrices which generate an isomorphic copy of this group. Though I know it is possible, since the symmetry group of the icosahedron is A5.
 
It isn't clear to me yet whether you are particularly interested in the simultaneous equations approach vs the group theory approach. It also isn't clear whether you want something like a general purpose computer algebra program to solve this problem for any given A and B or whether you only care about one particular pair of matrices.

The name for the study of representing groups as matrices (or more generally as transformations on perhaps infinite dimensional vectors spaces) is the "theory of group representations". I found one paper dealing with the representation theory of A5. http://www.math.toronto.edu/murnaghan/courses/mat445/mwesslen.pdf (See page 14)

A nice Wiki devoted to groups is: http://groupprops.subwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
 
I'm more interested in a general solution with a linear algebra or a simultaneous equations approach in the hopes that such an approach will work for whatever initial matrices I start with.
 

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