News GW Bush borderline insane?-the Gog Magog episode.

[Proton Soup]

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it is little more than gossip. is Chirac still on trial for embezzlement?

 

[BobG]

I'm pretty sure most people have admitted that they are only giving the story truth value as far as this discussion is concerned. They accept that it is not determined but the thread is ABOUT GW Bush being borderline insane?... that means the topic is: Given this article, and accepting it as true, would you consider GW to be borderline insane? It's not really a discussion about the validity of said argument. It's all hypothetical, and we accept that. If you can't then don't par-take in discussion?

That's a bizarre premise for a discussion. If that's the ground rules, the thread should be moved from Politics & World Affairs to the Fantasy subforum.

While I doubt the story is true, could it at least be possible?

Sure. Congress is easy to manipulate. Public opinion is easy enough to manipulate. The only real question is whether a religious group would really try to gain control of the President.

There's certainly theocratic governments in the world. More importantly, there's even recent history of church groups making an organized effort to gain influence with American leaders.

In 2004, more than a dozen US lawmakers gathered to coronate Sun Myung Moon as "humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent", complete with Rep (Ill) Danny K Davis presenting Moon's crown. (The Rev. Moon Honored at Hill Reception - Washington Post). Granted, the lawmakers all claimed that they were duped into participating in the ceremony, but, given Moon's history, all of those lawmakers should fire their entire staff for missing those kind of red flags.

The church was founded in 1961 by a director of Korea's Central Intelligence Agency, Kim Chong Pil, with Sun Myung Moon established as the third coming of Adam (with Jesus being the unsuccessful second coming of Adam). The core of the church's belief was that Korea was the new chosen nation of God, much as Israel was the old chosen nation of God (in fact, Moon blames things such as the holocaust on crucifying Jesus before he had a chance to fulfill his Messianic goals, which have subsequently been placed on Moon). As the chosen nation of God, a major battle between Satan (Communist N Korea, Soviet Union, and China) and God (Democratic S Korea, Japan, and the US) would play out in Korea. (The Moonies - Napa Sentinel, March 1992)

So perhaps the idea of a religious cult taking over the US government is slightly inaccurate, since the religious beliefs of the Unification Church mainly have to do with S Korean national security.

In the 70's, the church basically conducted a propaganda campaign for the Republic of Korea, supplied volunteers to work in Congressional offices, and were also associated with Tongsun Park, the Korean businessman that bribed US Congressmen. Supposedly, up to 115 Congressmen were involved in some way with Tongsun Park, but only 10 Democratic Congressmen were seriously implicated, with only one actually being convicted and serving time. (Koreagate and the Fraser Committee).

After Koreagate, the Fraser Committee, and the assassination of S Korea's President, most serious efforts petered out and Moon mainly used his church as a tax free method of enriching his personal wealth.

So, while efforts of a "religious" organization, and a foreign religious organization at that, to influence US leaders was unsuccessful, the idea that a religious organization could attempt to run US foreign policy is far from preposterous.

And, even after the ties back to the S Korean government were exposed, the Unification Church was still able to maintain close ties with US leaders such as George HW Bush, who accepted millions from the Unification Church in speaking fees in the 90's after leaving office, and with George W Bush, sponsoring his Inaugural Prayer Luncheon for Unity and Renewal in 2001, and a close enough relationship with other national leaders to dupe them into participating in his coronation ceremony.

Many national leaders just ain't all that smart when it comes to whom they maintain relationships with.

 

[drankin]

Why would an evangelical want to stop a biblical prophecy? Doesn't make any sense. Most that I know can't wait till everything prophecied happens.

 

[Gokul43201]

It just doesn't seem to me that there is a discussion about the validity of the paper. It seems more like everyone is leaning back going "Oh, that explains it. He was just a religious wacko."

I would def. find this article of grave importance, but all evidence points to it being false. Mainstream media wasn't exactly friendly toward the guy so if they could have verified the facts it would have created a massive scandal. The "reliable" source we have is the former French President and nothing else.

I just feel like we are buying giving credence to the paper out of bias against the former President instead of looking to see if the paper itself is anything more than someone trying to sell their book by taking another stab an a popular target. It seems that so far this is a very un-PF discussion.

I agree with most of this. Given the seemingly bizarre nature of the claim, there is relatively little to support it, and that most definitely warrants a healthy serving of skepticism.

However, upon further inspection (which, I believe, is what you are calling for as a minimum requirement for meaningful discussion), I note the following:

1. In order for this to be an outright fabrication, it requires more than just Chirac fibbing to the author of a book. It in fact requires a mini-conspiracy of sorts involving Chirac, the French Federation of Protestants (or some contact person within the Federation) and Prof Thomas Römer. That anyone of these three would go to such lengths to conjure up a wildly bizarre story involving Bush, Gog & Magog seems unlikely.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/aug/10/religion-george-bush

2. More likely, there was a conversation involving some mention of Gog & Magog, and Chirac may be embellishing it for effect. This requires no conspiracy, as he may have still wanted to find out more about the 'ogs and the other players in the incident will confirm that they were queried about said 'ogs, but can profess no direct knowledge of the contents of the alleged conversation.

3. Also, given other incidents of a similar nature^[i,ii], it is not inconceivable the Bush might in fact, have had a conversation exactly along the lines that it is reported in the OP. There is some weakly reported precedent that makes this not as bizarre an anecdote as it seems at first glance. Whether these are the earnest thoughts of a borderline delusional person or simply part of a political calculation (hard to see what that may be) are at a level of speculation that becomes worthwhile entering into only after the facts of the conversation are established with a lot more certainty.

i. The conversation with Palestinian leaders (and the various translations that were borne of it) in which Bush mentioned either being inspired or instructed by God to attack the Taliban and Saddam;

ii. The conversation with an Amish group near Lancaster, PA, during a campaign stop for his second term, where he is reported to have more bluntly expressed his belief that God spoke through him (according to an article by Jack Brubaker, in the Lancaster New Era).

http://butterflyredux.com/bushchannelsgod.htm

 

[DaveC426913]

Why would an evangelical want to stop a biblical prophecy? Doesn't make any sense. Most that I know can't wait till everything prophecied happens.

Rent http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096073/" - if you dare...

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

2. More likely, there was a conversation involving some mention of Gog & Magog, and Chirac may be embellishing it for effect. This requires no conspiracy, as he may have still wanted to find out more about the 'ogs and the other players in the incident will confirm that they were queried about said 'ogs, but can profess no direct knowledge of the contents of the alleged conversation.

This was my impression. Bush seemed to favour religious symbolism in his rhetoric. That he may have drawn parallels with biblical incidents when attempting to communicate his thoughts does not seem so very out of left field. That a person who does not like Bush, looking back on such a conversation in the context of years of theories about Bush being a religious nut, might misrepresent or misremember the conversation in such a way seems quite likely.

I do not know how many times I have heard people describe conversations, which I was present for myself, and blow them all out of proportion even only minutes after it took place. I tend not to trust many people's recollections of conversations.

 

[Proton Soup]

What is interesting, is that if this were confirmed, how many people would be shocked? Certainly it would be unusual, but not out of character, and that alone says a great deal about the man, and how he presented himself and ideas.

Shaka, when the walls fell.