Harmonic Oscillator problem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the wavefunction for the ground state of a harmonic oscillator and the interpretation of inserting dispersion values into the Hamiltonian to estimate typical energies. Participants explore the relationship between variance, expectation values, and the implications of the uncertainty principle in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why inserting dispersion values into the Hamiltonian yields estimates for typical kinetic and potential energies, suggesting that expectation values should be used instead.
  • Another participant asserts that variance is defined as the expectation value of x², implying that using variance is appropriate for obtaining typical values.
  • The original poster reiterates their confusion about why inserting dispersion values leads to correct solutions, linking this to their earlier question about the nature of the estimates.
  • A later reply clarifies that the Hamiltonian consists of p² and x², and that the expectation of H can be computed from the variance, given that the expectation values of p and x are zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of using dispersion versus expectation values in this context. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the clarity of these concepts and their implications for estimating energies.

Contextual Notes

There is an underlying assumption that the uncertainty principle applies, which constrains the product of the dispersions. However, the specific mathematical steps and definitions involved in this context are not fully resolved.

saim_
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The book derives the wavefunction for the ground state of a harmonic oscillator. It's found to be a Gaussian with dispersion [itex]l = \sqrt{\frac{\hbar}{2m\omega}}[/itex]. The probability distribution for momentum is found to be Gaussian as well with dispersion [itex]\sigma_{p} = \frac{\hbar}{2l}[/itex]. The following is the line of the book that I'm having trouble understanding:

"By inserting [itex]x = l[/itex] and [itex]p = \sigma_{p}[/itex] in the Hamiltonian, we obtain estimates of the typical kinetic and potential energies of the particle when it’s in its ground state."

where the Hamiltonian of course is [itex]\frac{1}{2m}\{ p^{2} + \left( m \omega x \right)^{2} \}[/itex].

Problem is: Why does inserting dispersion or variance produce estimates for typical values? Shouldn't this happen when we insert expectation or mean values?

The book goes on to say that minimizing the Hamiltonian after substituting the expressions for the dispersion values, as described above, under the constraint that their product will remain less than or equal to [itex]\frac{\hbar}{2}[/itex] (uncertainty principle), will produce the appropriate value of energy for ground-state. Why does this happen? Why is inserting dispersion values producing these correct solutions? But I think this confusion emerges from same question as before.
 
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variance IS by definition the expectation value of x^2
so by inserting variance you are indeed getting what you should get
 
saim_ said:
The book derives the wavefunction for the ground state of a harmonic oscillator. It's found to be a Gaussian with dispersion [itex]l = \sqrt{\frac{\hbar}{2m\omega}}[/itex]. The probability distribution for momentum is found to be Gaussian as well with dispersion [itex]\sigma_{p} = \frac{\hbar}{2l}[/itex]. The following is the line of the book that I'm having trouble understanding:

"By inserting [itex]x = l[/itex] and [itex]p = \sigma_{p}[/itex] in the Hamiltonian, we obtain estimates of the typical kinetic and potential energies of the particle when it’s in its ground state."

where the Hamiltonian of course is [itex]\frac{1}{2m}\{ p^{2} + \left( m \omega x \right)^{2} \}[/itex].

Problem is: Why does inserting dispersion or variance produce estimates for typical values? Shouldn't this happen when we insert expectation or mean values?

The book goes on to say that minimizing the Hamiltonian after substituting the expressions for the dispersion values, as described above, under the constraint that their product will remain less than or equal to [itex]\frac{\hbar}{2}[/itex] (uncertainty principle), will produce the appropriate value of energy for ground-state. Why does this happen? Why is inserting dispersion values producing these correct solutions? But I think this confusion emerges from same question as before.

Because the H of SHO, as you point out consists of [itex]p^2[/itex] and [itex]x^2[/itex], so [itex]\langle H \rangle[/itex] consists of [itex]\langle p^2[/itex] and [itex]\langle x^2[/itex]. Given that it is clear that [itex]\langle p \rangle 0[/itex] and [itex]\langle x \rangle = 0[/itex], the expectation of H can be computed from the variant.
 
Oh, yes, right... thanks a lot!
 

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