Has anyone here ever experienced an enlightenment?

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

This is what I had typed prior to seeing your responces, Hee hee,
WOOHOOooooooooo!
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July 8 2003

So, eNtRoPy, you mentioned the idea of "Buddhist Enlightenment", if observant of Buddhist Monks you would notice, (in the older ones more-so) the 'Serenity of Being' that is achieved through/by/in the placating of the 'noises' of the mind.

This path is found by practice, (inner-intellectual practice) the preceding practice, needed to reach that state, is the practice of the silencing of the mouth, and that practice, is preceded by the controlling of the minds output through (outa) the mouth, AKA controlling your own speech. (Patterns/word usage*[/color])

So we start the practices of (Jedi?) mind training, (Enlightened Buddhist Mindset) with the end result, the goal/gold in mind, of "Placating the Noises of the Mind" as to enjoy the serenity of a peaceful mind, by first learning to control ourselves in the manner(s) of our speech, followed by the learning of the controls of the mouth, learning to NOT speak, followed thereafter by the learning of the control of the thinking processes themselves, in the learning to silence the mind.


*[/color] The reasoning for the need of control over the word usage, speech patterns is in the recognition of the Emotive Driver that has association with speech patterns and the rebounding of the Emotive within the orator, literally stated as, "Your words end up driving you, and (then) your emotions, which will (then) drive your words, which will (then) drive your Emotions", so your ability to self control, delves from your ability to achieve some control over that type of patternistic process.

As for the idea of me "pedaling all this way, just to argue with seventeen year old boys" is sorta-kinda not very realistic about the situation that I find that I am currently in, inasmuch as, some might realize that one of the things that I pedal into town for, every day, is a simpler thing, it's called FOOD.

Hope that helps...?

(This part is after I had read the responces)

As for how "Enlightened" I actually am?, you don't know...period!
eNtRoPy accuses me of anger to quickly, sees himself in that one, NOT moi, that is very clear to me, but why is it so clear to me, yet he doesn't see that?

"Atypical" is simply your judgment radagast, so it isn't what you expect, welcome to the Real world, try training yourself to be silent, "Non-talkative", in North American Society. Just this morning, someone calling me "antisocial", behind my back, because I walked by them, in silence. What is 'typical', or 'atypical', about that?

Find the Ego(tist), in what I write, not as simple as you would think, cause I can reasonably assure you that you will find your own, first!

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
"Atypical" is simply your judgment radagast, so it isn't what you expect, welcome to the Real world, try training yourself to be silent, "Non-talkative", in North American Society. Just this morning, someone calling me "antisocial", behind my back, because I walked by them, in silence. What is 'typical', or 'atypical', about that?

Find the Ego(tist), in what I write, not as simple as you would think, cause I can reasonably assure you that you will find your own, first!

While it is my judgement, it is one I tend to trust. As for training, it do that quite regularly, both alone and with Buddhist monks. Being around them I do get the feel for the clarity or calmness that I, as a 'non-enlightened being' would expect sense around, and as part of, an enlightened individual. I have had, what I believe to be, an enlightenment experience (satori), so I feel I've got at least some grounding in forming a judgement in the area.

You speak of someone considering you antisocial for not speaking. While I wouldn't say my teacher is enlightened, I'm sure he is much closer than anyone else I've met personally. He talks only very rarely. I can imagine no case where anyone could or would consider him antisocial. Though he may not speak when he passes you, there is a profound sense of quiet compassion there. It is just my opinion, but I can't imagine someone that has achieved enlightenment to be considered antisocial, even in passing.

I have observed quite a bit of what you've written. Though you wouldn't be, what I would consider, egotistical, your ego shines thru just fine. As, I'm certain, does mine. This is what is lacking in the 'more' enlightened folk I've been associated with.

In reading your response carefully, I realize you are not claiming that you are enlightened and I'm not trying to argue with you, only voice how I would interpret what I've observed, regarding enlightenment of an individual, using you as an example.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by radagast
(SNIP) I have observed quite a bit of what you've written. Though you wouldn't be, what I would consider, egotistical, your ego shines thru just fine. As, I'm certain, does mine. This is what is lacking in the 'more' enlightened folk I've been associated with. (SNoP)

Examples please... as one of the things that is (has been) very clear, in my life, is just how many people cannot tell/recognize the truth about the Ego's of 'others', inasmuch as the "takes one to know one" rule requires that, for you to recognize one who operates mostly absent of egotistical drive, you must be able to subdue your own ego to "at least" that degree...most cannot see 'that' which is 'that' which they cannot reach.

The easiest examples of Ego come from persons/peoples judgments, how well they are based in something, balanced against admittence to their own (self recognized) ignorance.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Examples please... as one of the things that is (has been) very clear, in my life, is just how many people cannot tell/recognize the truth about the Ego's of 'others', inasmuch as the "takes one to know one" rule requires that, for you to recognize one who operates mostly absent of egotistical drive, you must be able to subdue your own ego to "at least" that degree...most cannot see 'that' which is 'that' which they cannot reach.

The easiest examples of Ego come from persons/peoples judgments, how well they are based in something, balanced against admittence to their own (self recognized) ignorance.

Depending on your meanings, I'm not sure I disagree, yet there are things I can recognize in others that I cannot do myself.

When at retreat, there was situation during a work period, where one monk - having seen where we had been really working hard, told us to have a seat a get a cup of coffee. That monk left the kitchen and less than 20 seconds later another walked in and assumed we were loafing. We got chewed out for it. Normally I would have felt compelled to explain the situation. Having been at the retreat a while, our egos had subsided enough to intuitively realize that it really didn't matter, so we simply got up and resumed working. Having experienced a few times of reduced ego, I can often recognize it in others. As long as a persons ego isn't directly involved with another person having or not having an ego, they can sense the absence of the things we often associate with ego - judgemental behavior, lack of clarity of thought/action, defense mechanisms. In addition, reduced ego people listen better, because their ego's aren't getting in the way, they seem to be in the moment much more often than the rest of us, plus half a dozen attributes that have been mentioned here before, so don't need repeating.

Just as well, it doesn't take a lot of experience to realize when someone's verbally defensive. In an online situation, that is an excellent example of one's ego shining thru. What else would lead a person to defend a position - when nothing serious would occur from a lack of defense.

When you ask for examples, that, by itself, is a defensive act. Think about it. When it really comes down to it, why would you care whether we think your enlightened or not, yet you still manage to brave a written defense.

One thing you state really strikes to the heart of the matter. Judgement. Unbidden, when one person is judging another's actions/words/position, that, in and of itself, is an obvious act of ego. The persons I've known that were much closer to enlightenment than I am (or likely ever will be) are about as non-judgmental as they come.

 

[Andy]

4) apparently you seem to think that the ony thing I do is exchange with andy, (17 year old Boy) what an un-enlightened cursive thing you are!

You definately do more than exchange with me, i have noticed you exchanging with many other people aswell.

 

[TENYEARS]

Radagast, I recommend the movie "Cirlce Of Iron".

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

So radagast, your own words...

Originally posted by radagast
Just as well, it doesn't take a lot of experience to realize when someone's verbally defensive. In an online situation, that is an excellent example of one's ego shining thru. What else would lead a person to defend a position The person wanting the truth to be the predominate result![/color]- when nothing serious would occur from a lack of defense. Not really true as, a lie may be left standing, that is unacceptable at this point in the pathway that, by God's Grace, I must follow. (by being led)[/color]

When you ask for examples, that, by itself, is a defensive act. Think about it. When it really comes down to it, why would you care whether we think your enlightened or not, NO, but I do care about the "Truth", and how that is presented to people as that is all they have to learn from, and, as the learning is the important part, I would prefer to (attempt) do that well, if possible.[/color] yet you still manage to brave a written defense.

One thing you state really strikes to the heart of the matter. Judgement. Unbidden, when one person is judging another's actions/words/position, that, in and of itself, is an obvious act of ego. Hence the next quotation, from you, you starting in the excersize of judgment, the second one, followed by your first one...[/color] The persons I've known that were much closer to enlightenment than I am (or likely ever will be) are about as non-judgmental as they come.

Clearly here you pass judgment, inasmuch as you trust your judgment...

Originally posted by radagast
While it is my judgement, it is one I tend to trust. As for training, it do that quite regularly, both alone and with Buddhist monks. Being around them I do get the feel for the clarity or calmness that I, as a 'non-enlightened being' would expect sense around, and as part of, an enlightened individual. I have had, what I believe to be, an enlightenment experience (satori), so I feel I've got at least some grounding in forming a judgement in the area.

But here you have made an assumption about me...that above you trust, but I ask you, based upon what?

Originally posted by radagast
No insult intended, RP, but using the definition of Enlightenment typical of Buddhism, I'd have to lean toward agreeing with ENtropy. Loss of ego is extremely typical of enlightened individuals. Even people that are practicing toward that are a lot like that - they will almost never be seen in an argument or debate. Just your last response would have been extremely atypical of an enlightened person.

As you have simply decided that you know 'the how' and 'the why' of my life, the presentation of the person, who is here, and yet you have little direct knowledge of me, no personal interaction, and are probably lacking in sufficient knowledge of the overall capabilities that I have been allowed to see/hear/feel/know/live in a full fourty seven years of living, (in my fourty-eighth) as the life that I lead has a form of a duality about it, that is exceedingly self evident, yet Abolutely impossible to validate to anyone else. (Personally, God's Grace. I really don't need to, haven't needed to for a lot longer then most people will ever know, and, again by God's Grace, I do care!)

One of the simplest manners of "Hiding an Ego", in North American Society, is by being having, and being able to communicate esoteric knowledge. In a discourse that is simply intellectual inasmuch as it seeks to find truthfull knowledge, an Ego can be very very well hidden, especially when the person is, Not completely absent of one, but absent enough to have learned the value of absenting it, By Practise!

(But again, you would not know! would you?, how could you?)

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
Radagast, I recommend the movie "Cirlce Of Iron".

I've seen it. A very good movie.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by eNtRoPy
(SNIP)[/color] illegally camped tent (SNoP)[/color]

Curiousity? where did you get this idea from? the idea that my camping situation is "illegal"?

After all, your not a lawyer, right?

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Curiousity? where did you get this idea from? the idea that my camping situation is "illegal"?

It's just a play on words. By a strategic placement of a single adjective, I can make you sound ten worse. I learned this technique from the public education system of America.

Why do you think I called Andy a 17 year old boy? Had I called him a 17 year old man, then you would have sounded less like the homosexual pedophile that you may (or may not) be. Of course, human nature is to always assume the worst of a person. So you can see how easy it is for me to capitalize on this fact as well. Yes, I also learned technique from the American public education system.

We rule!

eNtRopY

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by eNtRopY
It's just a play on words. By a strategic placement of a single adjective, I can make you sound ten worse. I learned this technique from the public education system of America.

Why do you think I called Andy a 17 year old boy? Had I called him a 17 year old man, then you would have sounded less like the homosexual pedophile that you may (or may not) be. Of course, human nature is to always assume the worst of a person. So you can see how easy it is for me to capitalize on this fact as well. Yes, I also learned technique from the American public education system.

We rule!

eNtRopY

The braggadocio of a self inflated narcisist, not bad.

All you really suceed in doing, in the end, is lieing to yourself,

#1) cause you don't know if the "others" (the readers of these writings, other then your 'playpals') really believe you.

#2) becuase you must believe in your own lie(s) as to seem convincing.

#3) You think that because you can lie (and are willing to do it) that you are, therefore, Superior.

(clear proof of you duping yourself!)

 

[eNtRopY]

How am I lying? You still haven't proven to any of us that you are not a homosexual pedophile OR that you saved the Canadian government $40,000,000 OR that you have such a profound understanding of gravity that you are constantly on the run from American G-men who want to destroy the potentially dangerous information in your head OR that you are enlightened.

eNtRopY

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by eNtRopY
How am I lying? (Opening your mouth, seems to work!)[/color] You still haven't proven to any of us that you are not a homosexual pedophile OR that you saved the Canadian government $40,000,000 OR that you have such a profound understanding of gravity that you are constantly on the run from American G-men who want to destroy the potentially dangerous information in your head[/color] OR that you are enlightened.

eNtRopY

And I have abolutely no need to prove anything to you.

PS. you haven't proven a lick of that to be true, either, but you have, once again proven your[/color]self to be quite the "maker'r upperer of the storryer!" (How sad..and kinda silly, in a 'stupid' sort of way. Spuuun Doctor![/color] "weaver of de tails, de (false[/color]) trails")

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
And I have abolutely no need to prove anything to you.

You have no need to lie to us either, yet that doesn't stop you.

eNtRopY

 

[radagast]

My original post seems to have been eaten by the system... Computers, got to love em.

Mr. P, Yes, I have made a judgement - having never claimed to be enlightened, this would be consistent with my current state of being.

Could I be incorrect, yes. I only have what I've seen to base my judgements on, so on that limited information have have made a judgement call. And your subsequent words didn't dissuade me from my original position.

Perhaps you are one of the few people in history to actually be enlightened. I've only heard of two that I considered enlightened in the last 2500 years (based on their words and actions), perhaps you're number 3. Imagine getting to sesshin and telling everyone that I got to talk to an enlightened person - the next Buddha.

And I was there!

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by eNtRopY
You have no need to lie to us either, yet that doesn't stop you.

eNtRopY

Again, here you go, accusing with no eveidence, no proof, nothing but your own self assumptive silliness.

Little boy, go back to your mama!

PS the thread is about enlightenment, I know that is difficult for you entropy, to deal with reality, but try, for the sake of all of the readers of these forums, try.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by radagast
My original post seems to have been eaten by the system... Computers, got to love em.
Mr. P, Yes, I have made a judgement - having never claimed to be enlightened, this would be consistent with my current state of being.
Could I be incorrect, yes. I only have what I've seen to base my judgements on, so on that limited information have have made a judgement call. And your subsequent words didn't dissuade me from my original position.
Perhaps you are one of the few people in history to actually be enlightened. I've only heard of two that I considered enlightened in the last 2500 years (based on their words and actions), perhaps you're number 3. Imagine getting to sesshin and telling everyone that I got to talk to an enlightened person - the next Buddha.

And I was there!

I agree, that kind of enlightenment is really really rare on the face of the planet, but it still occurs.

Whether, or not, this is achievable, in my lifetime, is something that is between myself, and my creator. Clearly, to me, it wouldn't, and cannot, occur, save for the blessings of that creator being given to such result.

Praise be to God!

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
I agree, that kind of enlightenment is really really rare on the face of the planet, but it still occurs.

Whether, or not, this is achievable, in my lifetime, is something that is between myself, and my creator. Clearly, to me, it wouldn't, and cannot, occur, save for the blessings of that creator being given to such result.

Praise be to God!

That's the (extremely uncommon) kind of enlightenment that Entropy and I have been talking about.

Since it seems that your working definition was a little more commonly occurring, I withdraw any comments about your (lack of)attainment of enlightenment, under your definition.

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Praise be to God!

Although, the Zen philosophy doesn't address the issue of whether or not God exists, when you get right down to it, every great Zen master was an athiest.

eNtRopY

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

So let's put it this way, of all of the ones, who have achieved a true form of enlightenment, had to have had that within them, from the beginning, just that, they themselves, had not yet learned enough about themselves, to live with that which is within them, as free.

Even the mother who adopted me, recognized that I needed to be free.

(nature? nurture? 'or both!?)

 

[Andy]

Oh my god!

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by eNtRopY
Although, the Zen philosophy doesn't address the issue of whether or not God exists, when you get right down to it, every great Zen master was an athiest.

eNtRopY

That may not be true. I read somewhere, possibly an Alan Watts book, I can't remember where that the Buddha saw god in the end. When asked about God and spirits he said let the ''gods and spirits take care of themselves. We must learn to this live life here on this world. That may not be a direct quote it is at least aparaphrase of what he was said to have said.

Whethe Buddhist or Christian it is within all of us. We have only to look within and accept what we see. Then the hard work starts.

 

[TENYEARS]

Zen, christian, american indian, voodoo, science, santa claus does not address anything. Individuals address the truth not a building, a computer a group of people or whatever relative objects one needs to define to grope for some meaning. The truth exists in one place and one place alone. You may call it every nowhere or nowhere everywhere, but in the end if it aint in mud it isn't anywhere.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
Zen, christian, american indian, voodoo, science, santa claus does not address anything. Individuals address the truth not a building, a computer a group of people or whatever relative objects one needs to define to grope for some meaning. The truth exists in one place and one place alone. You may call it every nowhere or nowhere everywhere, but in the end if it aint in mud it isn't anywhere.

Except for that cryptic part about mud, I think most Zen Buddhist would agree.

 

[Iacchus32]

All we are is dust in the wind dude!

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Ah yes, that mention of "My Mom", it was an "intuitive thought" that had arisen 'within her', (at last that is what she has told me, more then once) as she had been observing this boy playing in the back yard, less then five years old, and it was from 'within her' that she had known of the need of myself, to be free.

(Lord knows! I had nothing to do with it!)

 

[quartodeciman]

Then there was the zen monk who declared: "Now that I have become enlightened, I am just as miserable as I ever was. Ha! Ha!"

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by quartodeciman
Then there was the zen monk who declared: "Now that I have become enlightened, I am just as miserable as I ever was. Ha! Ha!"

Perhaps his perception of being, or having become "enlightened" was simply a self-deception, as I, personally, have not found the pathway (my own) to be a miserable one, just that some of the people that I have had to deal with, along that pathway, have definitely tried to make it that!

God does not make it miserable to be enlightened, humans do!

 

[quartodeciman]

I rather enjoy thinking he is right on target, and it sounds very zenlike.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by quartodeciman
I rather enjoy thinking he is right on target, and it sounds very zenlike.

OK, but I would rather surpass "zenlike", xazen and beyoooond!