News Has society become too politically correct?

[Zantra]

To play devils advocated against AA, let's use an example. Let's say student A is white, middle class, and has an overall 3.9 GPA. While student B is black, middle class also, and has an overall 3.4 GPA. But because of AA student B is selected. Now both had equal opportunities in life, but student A had the better grades. This is the flaw with AA. The inferred assumption is that minorities are auotmatically disadvantaged regardless of socioeconomic status. This is not always the case, as you see by my example. Again I don't believe in white entitlement. I believe in a person being judge individually on their merits alone. If we were a truly equalitarian, unbiased society, we would not give special treatment to someone based on their race. It's simple, it's called white guilt. We are atoning for the sins of our forefathers, which is really wrong(note the "reperations" movement). While american history was fraught with mistakes, those mistakes are being corrected. However, giving someone special treatment for something that they did not experience is inherently misguided. The people truly deserving of that treatment are unfortunately passed on for the most part, and minorities today are growing up in a very free society(comparative to their ancestors). Two wrongs don't make a right. We've swung from one end of the spectrum, right over the middle and to the other side. Overcompensations doesn't change what happened. We are all human beings. And if you grow up in america, you have the same opportunities as everyone else. Being black does not automatically exclude priveledge, just as being white doesn't automatically merit entititlement. If you are economically challenged, it's not because of your race, it's because of your economic status. Period.

 

[Hurkyl]

No, I am accusing you of it because it is apparent in your post. Sorry that you are blind to it, I'm sure you mean well.

I have no problem being unable to see things that aren't there. I'm sorry you are too much of a bigot to believe someone else might not be.


I'm curious what an example of `fair play' (according to you) looks like...

 

[Zero]

I guess most white people can't see beyond maintaining their favored status. I'm not going to argue with you folks...maybe the next generation will make further strides, but I think you folks have gone as far as you are able.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
I have no problem being unable to see things that aren't there. I'm sorry you are too much of a bigot to believe someone else might not be.


I'm curious what an example of `fair play' (according to you) looks like...

Maybe he's just judging you based on the content of your character?

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Zantra
To play devils advocated against AA, let's use an example. Let's say student A is white, middle class, and has an overall 3.9 GPA. While student B is black, middle class also, and has an overall 3.4 GPA. But because of AA student B is selected. Now both had equal opportunities in life, but student A had the better grades.

You are assuming both had equal opportunities in life. I'm saying that this is a terrible assumption to make. Do you think that racism is so rare that the black students never get racist teachers and their by poorer grades. Also, do you really believe that a 0.5 difference in GPA is accurate enough to judge an applicant by?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
Maybe he's just judging you based on the content of your character?

Don't you love how I must be a bigot in reverse for discussing the idea that minorities start out behind, and have to work harder just to get even? Anti-AA folks thing that people exist in a vacuum, and if we pretend theat the societal differences don't exist, they will simply go away.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
You are assuming both had equal opportunities in life. I'm saying that this is a terrible assumption to make. Do you think that racism is so rare that the black students never get racist teachers and their by poorer grades. Also, do you really believe that a 0.5 difference in GPA is accurate enough to judge an applicant by?

More importantly, does affirmative action really work that way? It seems to me that the way it works(or it should, anyways) is sort of like giving a 10% boost to a minority student's test scores when considering their application. That wouldn't affect the top students either way, because someone with a 3.8 GPA is getting in either way. Let's say a university is going to admit 5000 students. The cut-off GPA that they will accept is a 2.5. The only students who are going to be affected either way are those marginal students in the bottom 10%. No white kid with a 3.8 GPA and a 1400 SAT is being denied college. No black student with a 2.0 GPA and a 500 SAT is being accepted.

 

[Njorl]

First, I am offended by the term 'politically correct', we prefer 'intolerance challenged'.

While there sure are a lot of people using sticks as suppositories, I think the biggest gripe about political correctness comes from those who really enjoyed bigotry. Some people's lives were much more fun when it was socially acceptable to denigrate entire chunks of the population.

On the other hand, some of this political correctness smacks of bigotry. I find the use of 'mentally challenged' in place of 'retarded' offensive. Retardation is a technical term. It has real meaning. It is not a source of shame. Using 'mentally challenged' as an attempt to defray shame is a tacit acceptance that there is something to be ashamed of. There is not! It's one thing when a community comes to a near consensus about what they wish to be called, it is quite another when outsiders decide to call them something "less shameful" than what they are.

Affirmative action, in my opinion, is a differnet arguement. Some people seem to think that bigotry is no longer a serious problem in this country. They are very much mistaken. Affirmative action has an insignificant effect compared to bigotry.

Njorl

 

[megashawn]

Please try to understand I'm as far from being racist as I can. I was raised in the BS, and I hardly even communicate with most of my family because of it. I don't think anyone here is trying to be racist, just trying to point out that the system we have is not working.

I chose to be an outcast during school in my oppostion to things you speak of. What did it do? Not much, just made the same racist teachers your talking about treat me much the same way. Looking back on it, did my outlook have any positive effect, not really.

The only thing I can see that's going to help humans, is not AA or PC, but just recognize that we are all human, none of us asked to be where we are at, and all any of us want is a roof over our head and food in the fridge. It don't matter if your gay, mentally handicapped, hot pink with blue finger and toe nails, we all need these things and we all desire better.

I mean, I remember being in school and stupid kids having "The south will rise again" etched into there backpacks. These same kids grew up and realize just how stupid they've been. A select few remain stupid. I can tell you that slowly, as time goes by, we are becoming a society less concerned with race. The problem lies in the people running society, still being veterans of the Civil Rights movement, a lot of them probably feel like there country has been stolen. Its rediculous, but hey, most things are.

No white kid with a 3.8 GPA and a 1400 SAT is being denied college. No black student with a 2.0 GPA and a 500 SAT is being accepted.

On that same note, how many white kids with a 2.0 GPA and 500 sat make it in?

 

[Nereid]

Let's say student A is white, middle class, and has an overall 3.9 GPA. While student B is black, middle class also, and has an overall 3.4 GPA.

Suppose both students refused, as a point of principle (asserting their constitutional right?) to state their race, class, gender, age*, etc? Would the college refuse to consider their applications until they gave up their quixotic protest?

the use of 'mentally challenged' in place of 'retarded' offensive

'dumb' yesterday, 'retarded' today, 'mentally challenged' tomorrow, ... usage trumps PC?

*AA for the aged anyone?

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
You are assuming both had equal opportunities in life. I'm saying that this is a terrible assumption to make. Do you think that racism is so rare that the black students never get racist teachers and their by poorer grades. Also, do you really believe that a 0.5 difference in GPA is accurate enough to judge an applicant by?

And do you think just because I'm white I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood with a privledged lifestyle? The pendulum swings both ways. It's amazing how many people "assume" those things about white people, when there are many who had an economically disadvantaged lifestyle. I was one of those people. Every argument in favor of AA has a completely valid counter. To automatically assume all blacks are disadvantaged is racist, and I can tell you many black people would be offended by that statement.

I have more non white friends than white friends, and believe me, one of the least racist people you will meet, so I'm offending when it's insinuated that simply because I'm against AA that I'm a racist. That's complete BS. AA does not promote equality, it just promotes the opposite of racism, which is no better than racism itsself. I was raised to be very liberal. But the system of AA does not work in practice.

As far as the spread of the GPAs, change it to suit your needs. What constitutes an acceptable difference? 1.0? 1.5? How big of a gap does it take to notice that the practices are tilted in the favor of minorities when the system should be blind to race? You can't ASSUME that all minorities are disadvantaged. A lot of my friends are asian, and let me tell you, they are a lot better off than I ever was growing up. So that STREREOTYPE that minorities are socioeconomically disadvantaged is complete BS. Everyone is diffent, and you can't assume things without tainting the results or being racist either one way or the other

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Njorl

On the other hand, some of this political correctness smacks of bigotry. I find the use of 'mentally challenged' in place of 'retarded' offensive. Retardation is a technical term. It has real meaning. It is not a source of shame. Using 'mentally challenged' as an attempt to defray shame is a tacit acceptance that there is something to be ashamed of. There is not! It's one thing when a community comes to a near consensus about what they wish to be called, it is quite another when outsiders decide to call them something "less shameful" than what they are.


Njorl [/B]

Calling someone mentally retarded is like calling a black person a negroe. It's technically correct, but it's antiquated, and calling someone retarded is awful close to calling them a retard, in the same way that calling someone a negro is also close to calling them a cool person. And hey, if you think somebody calling you out for being tactless is bigotry, then you have no real idea what the word bigotry is.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Zantra
And do you think just because I'm white I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood with a privledged lifestyle? The pendulum swings both ways. It's amazing how many people "assume" those things about white people, when there are many who had an economically disadvantaged lifestyle. I was one of those people. Every argument in favor of AA has a completely valid counter. To automatically assume all blacks are disadvantaged is racist, and I can tell you many black people would be offended by that statement.

I have more non white friends than white friends, and believe me, one of the least racist people you will meet, so I'm offending when it's insinuated that simply because I'm against AA that I'm a racist.

As far as the spread of the GPAs, change it to suit your needs. What constitutes an acceptable difference? 1.0? 1.5? How big of a gap does it take to notice that the practices are tilted in the favor of minorities when the system should be blind to race?

I think that because you are white then you are more likely to be more privileged than the average black person from the same socioeconomic class. Do you disagree? I can tell you that many black people believe that racism is still wide spread and will often give you a recent example of the last time they experienced it. That's probably why the wide majority of blacks support affirmitive action.

Yes, yes. I'm sure you have lots of black friends. And that you are very polite to those people. And you get off of work on MLK day. Yeah, yeah. People say that alot.

I agree that the system is blind to race. And when we have a porportional number of minorities in colleges and corporate boardrooms, and a porportional number of white people in prison, then I'll agree that we have a color blind society. Until then, we need AA.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by megashawn



On that same note, how many white kids with a 2.0 GPA and 500 sat make it in?

Didn't Bush get into Harvard and Yale with a D average in high school and a C average in college? Talk about white entitlement.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
I guess most white people can't see beyond maintaining their favored status. I'm not going to argue with you folks...maybe the next generation will make further strides, but I think you folks have gone as far as you are able.

I'm wondering why you're assuming that they are all white, or do you know this as fact from a previous conversation?

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Zero
Don't you love how I must be a bigot in reverse for discussing the idea that minorities start out behind, and have to work harder just to get even? Anti-AA folks thing that people exist in a vacuum, and if we pretend theat the societal differences don't exist, they will simply go away.

Isn't the first rule of denial to accuse your opponents of what you yourself are guilty of?

 

[megashawn]

And back at the time when Bush got into Harvard and Yale, money was the only thing needed, and I'm sure the Bushes have always had plenty.

I won't go as far as to say AA is broken, or a reversal, but it almost seems like a replacement to "Separate but equal". That idea was completely wrong, and with AA atleast it is an attempt at setting things right. But just as you and everyone else is pointing out, they arent right.

And just as Zantra is trying to point out, there are white people out there who do not get free handouts. I'll stand in line behind him on this. Now depending on where you live, you may or may not see this.

But at the same time, there are people who take the fact that there considered a minority and profit. For instance, I work with a person who receives disability checks, works a full time job, and gets paid to go to the local community college. Thats right, he gets cash in his pocket to go to school. He will not owe a penny for his training.

And there are cases up and down the spectrum of people doing this. And the people who are doing this, IMO, are the ones who cause the system(s) to not work properly.

But what good does finger pointing do us? I think Zantra formed this topic to discuss the problems brought up thus far. Certainly pointing fingers and calling names will get us nowhere.

 

[Hurkyl]

I guess most white people can't see beyond maintaining their favored status. I'm not going to argue with you folks...maybe the next generation will make further strides, but I think you folks have gone as far as you are able.

I'm sure you know my opinion of people when they argue in the very post they state their intention to stop arguing.

I was interested in your idea of `fair play' to explore the possibility that we really do have similar ideas about what it means, just that we don't see it because you worship PC-ness and I don't.

Maybe he's just judging you based on the content of your character?

Seeing how I've seen Zero do little but sling insults in the poly forum, I somehow doubt it.

I am exceedingly self-critical, and I make a serious effort to walk the straight-and-narrow, so I like to think I would have noticed if I had discriminatory tendancies... of course, I'm not perfect, and I would welcome a demonstration that I missed something.

Don't you love how I must be a bigot in reverse for discussing the idea that minorities start out behind, and have to work harder just to get even?

You were doing a lot of discussing of other ideas...

Didn't Bush get into Harvard and Yale with a D average in high school and a C average in college? Talk about white entitlement.

I think the driving factor here wasn't his skin color...

I agree that the system is blind to race. And when we have a porportional number of minorities in colleges and corporate boardrooms, and a porportional number of white people in prison, then I'll agree that we have a color blind society. Until then, we need AA.

Just to fill in other details, is it implicit in your criterion that the proportionality exists in essentially every criterion?

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
I think that because you are white then you are more likely to be more privileged than the average black person from the same socioeconomic class. Do you disagree? I can tell you that many black people believe that racism is still wide spread and will often give you a recent example of the last time they experienced it. That's probably why the wide majority of blacks support affirmitive action.

So because some people sometimes experience racism we should just assume that every african american is disadvantaged, uneducated, and discriminated against? What does that say for all the educated black people out there? I guess they were just lucky huh?

Yes, yes. I'm sure you have lots of black friends. And that you are very polite to those people. And you get off of work on MLK day. Yeah, yeah. People say that alot.

I see a bigot here, and it's not myself. Oh, I'm white so I'm a racist. If that's your extremely narrow-minded uneducated "worldly" view, then you really need get to know more people. I'm not a racist, and you don't actually know me, but you sure as hell seem to think you do. For all YOU know, I could BE a minority! I don't have to justify myself to you, or PROVE that I'm not racist. Believe what you want in your shortsighted view of the world.

I agree that the system is blind to race. And when we have a porportional number of minorities in colleges and corporate boardrooms, and a porportional number of white people in prison, then I'll agree that we have a color blind society. Until then, we need AA.

So in essence you agree with everything I'm saying, but you're calling me a racist. How beautiful. Interesting logic.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
Isn't the first rule of denial to accuse your opponents of what you yourself are guilty of?

And yet here you stand accusing me of being a racist. Now who's prejudiced?

Megashawn is right. I didn't create this post for people to start labeling others as racists. If you think you know I'm a racist then you're really a complete fool who actually knows nothing about me.

Many white people are poor. And poor people ARE discriminated against in one form or another. But they don't get the breaks because they are not a minority. You're just broadly labeling anyone who does't agree with the fundamentals of AA as a racist, which has no foundation in fact. It's as if I said abortion is necessary in cases of rape and incest and you called me a murderer. You're nothng but a fanatic.

But let's take it to an extreme. If I go into a poor area driving a BMW, I guarantee you I will experience bias. So now I'm a person whose been discriminated against. Should I then be entitled to AA?
OK then there's my point.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
Russ, you are persuasive, and wrong, as usual!

Zero and Chemical, you both aluded to it, but neither of you answered the question. I'll restate:

In situations where it is possible to be truly colorblind, should we be?

This is a simple yes or no question requiring only a simple yes or no answer.

Sorry if I missed anything relevant, but its a fast moving thread.

And as a side note, nice to see all the mods in here beating the piss out of each other.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Zantra
And yet here you stand accusing me of being a racist. Now who's prejudiced?

Nooooooo. I never call you racist. All I said was that you said you have lots of minority friends. Lots of people say that. Now it just so happens that just about every closet racist in the history of time says "Oh, I have lots of black friends" as some bizarre kind of evidence that they aren't racist, but I never accused of racism.

Now, are you accusing poor people of being violent criminals who will attack your precious car if you should denigrate yourself to drive through a poor neighborhood? Or are you just accusing poor people hating you because you're rich? Because I would like to know how that would prevent you from getting into college.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Hurkyl


I think the driving factor here wasn't his skin color...

every criterion?

The driving factor was genetics. His father got him in. And his father (you know, the nazi collaborator) before him. And the Bushes wouldn't be are where they are today if they were black. Black people don't have the luxury of having ancestors in powerful positions in american society. That's a big part of what white entitlement is about.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
Nooooooo. I never call you racist. All I said was that you said you have lots of minority friends. Lots of people say that. Now it just so happens that just about every closet racist in the history of time says "Oh, I have lots of black friends" as some bizarre kind of evidence that they aren't racist, but I never accused of racism.

Oh so you're calling me a CLOSET RACIST. Gee, so glad we clarified that. If you think I'm making it up, say so and I'll forward you a list of as many people you need to talk to to verify I'm not lying. While you're generalization that all white people are closet racists and fabricate "fake minority friends" I can assure you that's not true in my case, and I could prove it if called out. It's funny how people resort to baseless accusations and name calling in some last ditch effort to win an argument.

Now, are you accusing poor people of being violent criminals who will attack your precious car if you should denigrate yourself to drive through a poor neighborhood? Or are you just accusing poor people hating you because you're rich? Because I would like to know how that would prevent you from getting into college.

Wonderful. Now you're simply putting words in my mouth which I never uttered. No, none of what you said is accurate. But let me clarify it for you in case you're having trouble grasping the concept. I said:

But let's take it to an extreme. If I go into a poor area driving a BMW, I guarantee you I will experience bias.

This was in response to your comment that minorities are still experiencing racism. I was making the point that even white people encounter bias,(not necessarily exclusive of, but including race, and including socioeconomic status). I went to a high school where I WAS the minority, and let me tell you, I'm VERY familiar with racism.So far your argument isn't very strong. You're basically insinuating that being a minority automatically denotes bias. You're also insinuating that being white automatically precludes racism. I'm saying that racism comes in many forms, and isn't confined to minorities only.

 

[Hurkyl]

Black people don't have the luxury of having ancestors in powerful positions in american society. That's a big part of what white entitlement is about.

The vast majority of white people don't have that luxury either...

 

[megashawn]

And I don't have any superpowerful people in history from my family. I've been shunned by most of society, but mostly because I shun them.

I figured it out a long time ago that nobody requested to live the life they do. Sure, once your born, you can work towards certain goals, or even be fed with a golden spoon, and have everything handed to you. But who had the choice in being born? Do you remember picking which skin color you would have? I don't.

So it is a simple solution, but it has become such a complicated issue over the years that we need all this complexity in order to think we are being fare to the smaller populations.

Honestly, I don't think AA is fair to anyone. It can make things harder for me, but only if I want to use it for an excuse. Basically, anyone can make it, its just a matter of there own determination. Being thrusted into disadvantaged situations can go a long ways to undermining your determination. However, it can also make you stronger.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
The driving factor was genetics. His father got him in. And his father (you know, the nazi collaborator) before him. And the Bushes wouldn't be are where they are today if they were black. Black people don't have the luxury of having ancestors in powerful positions in american society. That's a big part of what white entitlement is about.

Man you're just full of contradictions. I guess I missed my turn in line when they were handing out powerful white ancestors- I had to make it without the benefit of one You may be trying to argue for pro-minority, but you have so many preconceptions and biases that you're not helping your cause, you're hurting it, and making yourself look bad in the process.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Zantra
Man you're just full of contradictions. I guess I missed my turn in line when they were handing out powerful white ancestors- I had to make it without the benefit of one You may be trying to argue for pro-minority, but you have so many preconceptions and biases that you're not helping your cause, you're hurting it, and making yourself look bad in the process.

What contradictions? Bush was just an example. You don't think that people get jobs for their kids? If it's disproportionately white people in upper management, and they get jobs for their kids, than that's white entitlement?

All I'm saying is that racism clearly exists and prevents minorities from having the same opportunities that white people have sans AA. On average.

I don't know you. I don't know if your Rickey Schroder or Oliver Twist. So I'm not saying if you've had it easy or not. But the fact is that minorities don't have it as easy as white people.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Zantra
Oh so you're calling me a CLOSET RACIST.


Wonderful. Now you're simply putting words in my mouth which I never uttered.



This was in response to your comment that minorities are still experiencing racism. I was making the point that even white people encounter bias,(not necessarily exclusive of, but including race, and including socioeconomic status). I went to a high school where I WAS the minority, and let me tell you, I'm VERY familiar with racism.So far your argument isn't very strong. You're basically insinuating that being a minority automatically denotes bias. You're also insinuating that being white automatically precludes racism. I'm saying that racism comes in many forms, and isn't confined to minorities only.

You can dish it out but can't take it.

Anyway, as for your unfortunate experiences with racsim. Was it institutionalized? Was it systematic? Was it widespread? Did it come from positions of authority? Did it keep you down? Did it result in a bad grade? Did it keep you from getting into college? Did it keep you from getting a good job? Do you think you would have had better opportunities if you were black?

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
You can dish it out but can't take it.

Anyway, as for your unfortunate experiences with racsim. Was it institutionalized? Was it systematic? Was it widespread? Did it come from positions of authority? Did it keep you down? Did it result in a bad grade? Did it keep you from getting into college? Did it keep you from getting a good job? Do you think you would have had better opportunities if you were black?

And praytell what exactly is it that I'm dishing out? Please enlighten me.


Your characterization of racism is way overblown. You come across as a paranoid who sees conspiracy everywhere you look. I think you would do better in the M&P forums than here. Everybody encounters bias at some point in their lives. That's an unfortunate fact of society that we can only hope will improve with time. While I'm sure there are instances of what you're describing, they are few and far in between.
Maybe you've had bad experiences which have tainted your view, but the people I know well who are minorities generally don't share that viewpoint. Have that had bad experiences? Yes., But they don't let it make them bitter or judge all people based on those experiences, and that is exactly what you are doing.