Help me visualize electronic vibrations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of electronic vibrations in molecules, specifically focusing on the carbon-oxygen double bond (C=O) and its vibrational modes. Participants explore the nature of stretching vibrations, the role of electron density, and the implications for infrared absorption. The conversation includes technical aspects of molecular vibrations and their representation in energy states.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the stretching mode of the C=O bond as oscillating back and forth, questioning the movement of electron density between carbon and oxygen during this process.
  • Another participant explains that during stretching, electrons move closer to the more electronegative atom, leading to bond polarization and a requirement for infrared absorption.
  • A participant introduces the concept of electronic vibrational states as quantized vibrational energy levels, mentioning various types of vibrations such as symmetric and asymmetric stretches.
  • One participant notes that infrared absorption occurs when vibrations result in a change of dipole moment and suggests further reading on normal modes of vibration.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the change in dipole moment is a result of IR-allowed vibrations and clarifies the terminology around molecular vibrations versus electronic vibrations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the terminology and implications of electronic vibrations versus molecular vibrations. While some concepts are clarified, there is no consensus on the definitions and relationships between these terms.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved aspects regarding the definitions of electronic versus molecular vibrations, and the discussion includes assumptions about the behavior of electrons and dipole moments during molecular vibrations.

scarecrow
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Let's consider the simple functional group C=O (carbon double bonded to oxygen). There is only one type of vibration for this group and that's the stretching mode, where C<=>O oscillates back and forth.

What exactly is happening during the stretching? Are electrons, and therefore electron density, shifting from side to side, going from the carbon atom to the oxygen atom?

Also, I don't think I'm grasping the idea of an electronic vibrational state. Could someone help me understand this in terms of what I stated above?

Thanks.
 
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scarecrow said:
Let's consider the simple functional group C=O (carbon double bonded to oxygen). There is only one type of vibration for this group and that's the stretching mode, where C<=>O oscillates back and forth.

What exactly is happening during the stretching? Are electrons, and therefore electron density, shifting from side to side, going from the carbon atom to the oxygen atom?

Also, I don't think I'm grasping the idea of an electronic vibrational state. Could someone help me understand this in terms of what I stated above?

Thanks.

During a stretching vibration, the electrons will find themselves closer to the more electronegative atom. The bond will become polarized during this stretch/vibration. The polarizability is a requirement for infrared absorption (vibration). The electronic vibrational state is simply the quantized vibrational energy of the molecule. Symmetric stretch, asymmetric stretch, wagging, rocking, breathing (for ring systems) are all adjectives that are used to describe these states. They all have unique energies which can be displayed as a spectrum. If you were looking at the gross energy state of a molecule and drew a diagram representing a particular state, E(nergy) along the Y axis with horizontal lines representing some molecular electronic state, the vibrational states could be represented as a fine structure superimposed on a particular state. Even smaller fine structure can be diagrammed as a nearly continuous spin or rotational energy (microwave) state on top of each of the energy states possible.
 
The rule for IR absorption is that the vibration result in a change of dipole moment.
You might want to do some reading about "normal modes of vibration" for further info. But, briefly, for molecules with more than 2 atoms, there are 3N-6 internal degrees of freedom. (The six missing are translation and rotation of or about the center of mass.) which the normal modes describe.
-Jim
 
Stretching is due to the change in the dipole moment, which can be expressed using calc, but is easier to understand if drawn. Basically, there is a dipole center of the undisturbed molecule:
C=|=O
Place in an IR machine, and the location of the center will change due to the atoms <--- -> trying to go in different directions, with different magnitudes. So you get:
C===|=O
 
aqua regia said:
Stretching is due to the change in the dipole moment, ...
This reverses cause and effect. The change in dipole moment is caused by an IR allowed vibration. If a different atomic charge is associated with two atoms, an increase in the distance between them results in an increase of dipole moment.
Incidentally, the thread title is a bit garbled. Unless you are doing something outside of standard usage, molecular vibrations are taken to mean movement along the 3N-6 internal degrees of freedom of the nuclei and associated electrons - the atoms. "Electronic vibration" implies something about the movement of the electrons.
-Jim
 

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