Help! Old PC dog has to learn new Mac tricks

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A user transitioning from PC to Mac expresses frustration over the difficulty of finding accurate solutions for common tasks, such as changing desktop shortcut icons and creating aliases. They detail their unsuccessful attempts to follow online instructions, highlighting the non-intuitive nature of Mac's interface and the challenges posed by using a single-button mouse. The discussion also touches on the shortcomings of Apple's Magic Mouse and the need for alternative mice with traditional scroll wheels. Participants share their experiences and frustrations with Apple's design choices, emphasizing the lack of user-friendly features. Overall, the conversation reflects the steep learning curve and dissatisfaction with certain Mac functionalities for new users.
  • #51
Algr said:
Multiple instances of programs also seems like a waste of ram. Why load the same code twice?
You still don't understand the need
 
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  • #52
davenn said:
I was responding to algr's comment.
I know. I seized on it.
davenn said:
On a PC it's just Alt-Tab to move between any open programs (apps, for the youngin's)
Indeed!
davenn said:
Are you the only one at your new workplace using a Mac?
Not by a long shot.
davenn said:
There's noone else that could help with Mac functions
Asked. No one knows.

Not even the IT dept.
davenn said:
PS...Alt-tab works regardless of if the app is already opened or minimised
Indeed it does. In a civilized OS.
 
  • #53
DaveC426913 said:
Asked. No one knows.
WOW :confused:
 
  • #54
davenn said:
WOW :confused:
When I went to IT (on Day One of classes starting), the guy told me "Alt-tab doesn't work if the document is closed. If it's open and minimized, it will work."

I tried to 'splain and show him that that the doc being closed wasn't the problem (because, duh), that it was a problem with open-but-minimized docs**, but I could see his eyes had glazed over, and I left without a solution.
 
  • #55
DaveC426913 said:
When I went to IT (on Day One of classes starting), the guy told me "Alt-tab doesn't work if the document is closed. If it's open and minimized, it will work."

I tried to 'splain and show him that that the doc being closed wasn't the problem (because, duh), that it was a problem with open-but-minimized docs**, but I could see his eyes had glazed over, and I left without a solution.

Far out!!
They don't make IT techs like they used to
That is so bad :confused:
 
  • #56
I think you have to use the mouse. Or buy an app (there's one called "Alt-tab") that will give you that ability. It is a weakness but so much of modern computer use is mouse dependent. Most people who are younger than 50 don't care about keyboard shortcuts.
 
  • #57
JT Smith said:
I think you have to use the mouse. Or buy an app (there's one called "Alt-tab") that will give you that ability.
I will do this. Everyone i ask about this tells me they have installed a utility like this.

I was gobsmacked that Mac users needed an aftermarket tool to tab between apps.

"Here's your new iCar! What? You want to turn left? No one's ever asked for that. There's a third party app you can try..."

JT Smith said:
It is a weakness but so much of modern computer use is mouse dependent. Most people who are younger than 50 don't care about keyboard shortcuts.
I used to be a rabid mouse guy, not a keyboard shortcut guy.

But there's a big difference between application-specific kb-shortcuts and OS kb-shortcuts.

I really depend on operations like app switching and doc switching to be instant and invisible, requiring zero brain cycles, only muscle-memory.
 
  • #58
DaveC426913 said:
I was gobsmacked that Mac users needed an aftermarket tool to tab between apps.

I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.

Do you use a keyboard shortcut to put your Mac to sleep? Or to force quit a misbehaving app? How about to open the preferences for the app in focus?

Most people just use their mouse.
 
  • #59
JT Smith said:
I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.
How? Like this?
  1. stop what I'm doing
  2. pull up the dock (which takes the longest 1.5 seconds of my life) or the top menu bar,
  3. find the word icon,
  4. right click on it to bring up the Word menu,
  5. click on my doc,
  6. Go back to my keyboard
I could grow old and die in that time. :sorry:
JT Smith said:
Most people just use their mouse.
I wonder if it's because of the nature of my work. I often have to have at least four apps/docs running simultaneously and am going between them constantly.

Perhaps your 'most people' stick to one app at a time and it isn't a big deal.
 
  • #60
JT Smith said:
I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.
Those of us who have been here a long time will know that nothing will ever, ever change his mind. Or even get him to say "It's a personal choice, and I would have preferred it done the other way". The best we can do is wait for him to run out of steam. Yes, yes, people are doing it all wrong. We know.

I learned back in the day of the WordStar diamond that complaining that :The user interface is doing it all wrong!" is not a convincing argument. (Unlike say, "People keep typing Ctl-A when they really mean Alt-A."
 
  • #61
Vanadium 50 said:
Those of us who have been here a long time will know that nothing will ever, ever change his mind.
Is this yet another personal dig?
This thread is 5 months old, and I have a reputation that "nothing will ever, ever change my mind"?

Vanadium 50 said:
Or even get him to say "It's a personal choice, and I would have preferred it done the other way". The best we can do is wait for him to run out of steam.
Or not post if we have nothing constructive to add. Never mind dragging someone for being frustrated and struggling.


Congratulations Vanadium50, for being the first member in my 20 years on PF that is so regularly and unnecessarily rude that they have been put on Ignore.
 
  • #62
DaveC426913 said:
Is this yet another personal dig?
Not intentionally. It's taste. You will not convince anyone that your taste is better than another's. And vice versa. Because it's taste.

DaveC426913 said:
This thread is 5 months old
And you're still griping that Macintoish is not to your liking. After five months, we get it.

Do you think another 5 months will change your mind? And if not, aren't you agreeing with me?
 
  • #63
Vanadium 50 said:
Do you think another 5 months will change your mind?
Since he's being required to use a Mac for his job, it's not a matter of changing his mind. It's a matter of changing his employer's mind. Which doesn't seem likely. Given that, I sympathize with his ranting. Even more so as I have similar reactions to Apple products. Fortunately I am not required to use a Mac for work (I am forced to use Windows, which also sucks, but given the choice between suckages I will take Windows suckage over Mac suckage--for my personal computing I've been using Linux for more than 20 years now so as to avoid both). But I am required to use an iPhone and I regularly rant at it and wonder why in tarnation Apple products have any kind of reputation for usability.
 
  • #64
PeterDonis said:
t's a matter of changing his employer's mind.
That's fair. But "how do I change my employer's mind" is not really the direction this thread has gone.

I am also not a big fan of the Apple UI. But "I don't like the Apple UI" is about as useful a basis of discussion as "I don't like Brussels sprouts". (And a separate question from 'how do I get the company's cafeteria to serve them less often")

A fair comment is also "Program XYZ does not follow the Apple UI standards." However, that's not Apple's fault. I's XYZ's. Blaming it on Apple is somewhere between unproductive and counterproductive.

Audi has something called the "MMI interface", used for everything from tuning the radio to setting the air flow. For almost a decade, customers complained it was backwards: turning it CW move up the menu, and CCW moved it down. Audi's response was "you're all just wrong - this is the One Right Way To Do It." They finally relented a few years ago.
 
  • #65
Vanadium 50 said:
"how do I change my employer's mind" is not really the direction this thread has gone.
True. But it hasn't gone the way of pure ranting either. The OP has asked specific questions and gotten specific answers.
 
  • #66
Employers consider switching to Macs from Windows boxes when they see the Forrester report:

https://www.macworld.com/article/677841/macs-are-cheaper-to-own-than-pcs-forester.html

Our lab switched from a mix of Macs and Windows (i.e., employees could choose) to an all-Windows shop with WSL for Linux access. The main reason was how Apple deployed updates for each OS version by changing the servers that deployed the changes. This required the site to change its firewall settings on a new OS version. They also removed admin access for everyone except the site admins.

Personally I preferred the Mac environment over Windows where I had to constantly request new plugins, software... when I needed to do something. Many times on Mac it was already present and ready to use.

Perhaps you could ask for a deviation to have a Windows box. A use case might be some website doesn't work and so having a windows box you could determine if it was MacOS or the website. As an example, Safari and Chrome work well with tax return software but the Brave Browser doesn't.
 
  • #67
PeterDonis said:
The OP has asked specific questions and gotten specific answers.
Indeed. Every post of mine in this thread is about a specific problem I am currently having and cannot solve.

I'm not just free-range slagging all things Mac. I'm not looking for attention and I'm not just being bloody-headed.

I really need answers that I can't seem to find anywhere else, because this is for work, and it's making me look a little incompetent when I have to stop and figure out how to do a basic task that ought to be easy. The fact that no one else seems to know kind of vindicates my defense that's it not just my personal comfort zone that's at fault.

The ranting is merely a symptom of the fact that - by the time I resort to begging you guys - I am usually at wit's-end.
 
  • #68
DaveC426913 said:
The ranting is merely a symptom of the fact that - by the time I resort to begging you guys - I am usually at wit's-end.

Wit's end? I can't help but wonder what makes you so easily perturbed. I'm not a Mac fanboy and greatly prefer to use the keyboard for a multitude of operations where I don't have that choice. But wit's end? Really?

In order to enter this post I had to go from keyboard to mouse and then back again. Oh the horror!

And if that 1.5 seconds is really as mentally excruciating as you say then consider turning off the automatic dock hide/show feature. To maximize usable screen real estate it helps if you make the icons as small as you can while still being discernible, and put the dock on the side. Of course if you have a tiny monitor (like a laptop) that might not work. In that case consider getting a 27" external monitor. Two is even better if you are constantly switching back and forth between windows.

So there's some real advice for you. But, like Vanadium, I doubt it matters.
 
  • #69
JT Smith said:
Wit's end? I can't help but wonder what makes you so easily perturbed.
What makes you assume it happens easily?

I'm zooming through a project at full tilt, hands blurring, with a deadline I'm to meet because others depend on my deliverable that has to be error-free. It gets pretty aggravating if every thirty seconds I have to grind my concentration to a halt to babysit my computer for 5 seconds, That will burn my patience pretty quick.

My job is not stressful, I'm not overworked, but simply put, I am faster than my computer is.

Maybe compare it to sailing, where you can get up a nice head of speed - if the fender wouldn't keep dropping in the water, so you have to stop and pull it out. You are stuck with the boat, and no one knows how to secure fenders on this boat. So you just keep stopping. Not no mention the boat has a half dozen other similar bugaboos that interrupt other important tasks. How long would you stay patient?

I don't really think I need to justify my frustation. Surely we can all empathize with constantly being interrupted by things you can't fix while trying to concentrate.

JT Smith said:
And if that 1.5 seconds is really as mentally excruciating as you say then consider turning off the automatic dock hide/show feature.
Ok. I'll do that. It's not great, but it solves one problem while creating another. But I'll do my best.


Does that really warrant this?
JT Smith said:
But, like Vanadium, I doubt it matters.


I mean, why so?

The thread title is apt.

I'm asking specific questions to specific problems. It's not like I'm rejecting peoples' advice. And the fact that I learn how to cope with one problem doesn't mean the next one doesn't mess me up. So I have to keep finding solutions.

Is it possible you're missing the questions and just reading the ranty bits in between?
 
  • #70
A cautionary tale of UI customization. Years ago at my old company, we were porting a new user experience on top of OS/2. Our everyday machines were OS/2 based. It had a lot customization features similar to windows.

One coworker was always tweaking his setup. He had custom icons, scripts and tools all mapped to his desktop. In contrast, i kept a minimal desktop with working files and tended to use the command line to get things done. I had custom scripts and tools accessible by command line or in rare cases the desktop.

My coworkers customizations were stired in a central SOM database similar to the windows system database.

While doong some tests of SOM on his machine he inadvertently wiped out all of his changes. They were utterly gone gone gone. He didnt take it to well. I told thats why i choose the minimal approach. He scoffed and went back reconfigure everything. It took a few days to complete.

Bottomline one should adapt to the OS youre using and not go crazy trying to make it look like windows so much.

With respect to webpage urls on the desktop they could instead be saved as favorites in the browser that appear when you create a new tab or page.
 
  • #71
jedishrfu said:
In contrast, i kept a minimal desktop with working files and tended to use the command line to get things done
Yeah. Not to your degree but I am of the philosophy that over-customization of any electronic device is a ticking time bomb. Maybe a better analogy is a Jenga Tower.

Every device, from PC to phone to router to TV to Blutooth wall outlet will always need resetting or rebooting or upgrading or reimaging. And usually those customizations are lost in the process. Better not to depend on them any more than you have to.
 
  • #72
DaveC426913 said:
I was gobsmacked that Mac users needed an aftermarket tool to tab between apps.

No. It is Command-tab on a Mac by default. I usually switch apps using Mission control: I press the side button on my mouse, and all windows in every app shrink and rearrange to fit. Then I click on the window I want, and it enlarges. (Apple's mouse does this with a gesture, but I use a wired USB one.)
 
  • #73
DaveC426913 said:
Every device, from PC to phone to router to TV to Blutooth wall outlet will always need resetting or rebooting or upgrading or reimaging. And usually those customizations are lost in the process. Better not to depend on them any more than you have to.

That's one way to go about it. I prefer to customize to suit my style. For example, by default the mouse on a Mac is configured to scroll downward when your finger moves down, akin to scrolling on a phone. But in all my pre-Mac years the mouse worked the other way and that's what I grew to be used to. There's nothing intrinsically correct about one way or the other. It's a preference. That's why it's a "System Preference".

I've upgraded my OS numerous times and it always remembers this and all my other customizations. Someday my customizations may be lost and I'll have to reset them, if I can. And when I use someone else's computer I have to adapt on the fly to how their machine is configured. BFD.
 
  • #74
DaveC426913 said:
Is it possible you're missing the questions and just reading the ranty bits in between?

There's definitely a tone that permeates this thread and others. I can almost always tell from the title alone that it's one of yours. They're harmless though and can be entertaining. So carry on.
 
  • #75
Algr said:
No. It is Command-tab on a Mac by default.

If I have, say, six apps open, I can Cmd-Tab to any one of them - but only four or five of them will actually come up. One or two of them will not.

I'm trying it right now. Cmd-tab to:
Chrome: Yes.
Slack. Nope.
Finder: Nope.
Photoshop: Yes
Word: Nope.
etc.

At this point, I have to allow for the possibility that my OS is pooched somehow. But that was the point of the visit to IT, and we know how that went.
 
  • #76
Do I understand; For the finder to "come up" means that the other programs windows get out of the way? Mission control can do that. Try Command F3.
Regular F3 does the all-windows-smaller thing.
 
  • #77
JT Smith said:
There's definitely a tone that permeates this thread and others. I can almost always tell from the title alone that it's one of yours. They're harmless though and can be entertaining. So carry on.
I'm pretty informal and a little levitous outside the hard sciences. Not sure it warrants a judgement of "I doubt it [advice] matters".


But I do reserve the right to whinge here in my rant thread.
 
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  • #78
DaveC426913 said:
But I do reserve the right to whinge here in my rant thread.
Let's whinge together! I know when I have to use Windows I find it awkward as hell. It takes forever to find anything, and it is totally different from the last Windows I had to use.
 
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  • #79
Algr said:
Do I understand; For the finder to "come up" means that the other programs windows get out of the way?
Cmd-tab shows a horizontal list of icons of all open apps. Currently I have ten apps open.

I can Cmd-tab to any app, and then release to select it. Some work, some do not.

If I start manually selecting apps, and I go through a few, then the Cmd-tab list of working apps will be different.

So it's almost as if it will only remember the last X apps I've touched, and forgets the rest like a snake eating it own tail.


Algr said:
Mission control can do that. Try Command F3.
Cmd-F3 removes everything from my desktop to off-screen. Unless I want the desktop, this is useless.

Algr said:
Regular F3 does the all-windows-smaller thing.
This shows me three of the ten apps that are currently open. The rest are not visible.

If I start manually selecting apps, and I go through a few, then F3 the selection will be different.

So again, it's almost as if it will only remember the last X apps I've touched, and forgets the rest, like a snake eating it own tail.


That being said, F3 looks pretty useful. It does not pull up all my open apps, but it does pull up my dock as well.
 
  • #80
DaveC426913 said:
I'm pretty informal and a little levitous outside the hard sciences. Not sure it warrants a judgement of "I doubt it [advice] matters".

I can see how that my have come across as a judgement. I guess it was in way. I judged that my comments would have little if any effect upon the trajectory of this thread. Will they? I doubt it.
 
  • #81
DaveC426913 said:
I can Cmd-tab to any app, and then release to select it. Some work, some do not.

Hmmm...
On a Mac you can have a program running with no windows open. So tabbing to that program won't open up a new window. You should still see the program's name in the menu bar though. If that is what is going on, you can then open up a new document from the menu bar or hit Command N. Alternately, you can double click a document from the finder, and it will switch to whatever app opened it automatically.
 
  • #82
JT Smith said:
I can see how that my have come across as a judgement. I guess it was in way. I judged that my comments would have little if any effect upon the trajectory of this thread. Will they? I doubt it.
Your suggestion of the F3 and a few other things was very helpful.

But if I am leading anyone to believe I am not taking advice and that I don't think this is helping me, then I have seriously misrepresented myself. That's at least two people now who seem to read this as if I'm just ranting and rejecting all helpful advice. It may be better if I just close this thread rather than do further damage. I will consider.
 
  • #83
DaveC426913 said:
It may be better if I just close this thread rather than do further damage.
I don't know that that's necessary. As I noted in a previous post (which you referenced in one of your own), it is recognized that you are asking specific questions and getting specific answers.
 
  • #84
JT Smith said:
I judged that my comments would have little if any effect upon the trajectory of this thread. Will they? I doubt it.
Comments that the OP has done some ranting have not had much of an effect, no. Nor should they, since, as has been noted, the OP has also been asking specific questions and getting specific answers. So the thread is providing value. That is a significant effect on the trajectory of the thread.
 
  • #85
Algr said:
Hmmm...
On a Mac you can have a program running with no windows open. So tabbing to that program won't open up a new window.
No, these are docs that I have open but have tabbed away from or perhaps minimized. I am fully cognizant of when docs have been closed.

Algr said:
You should still see the program's name in the menu bar though.
I do, but some of these are single page apps, like Slack , so the idea of multiple docs in the same app doesn't apply.
 
  • #86
PeterDonis said:
I don't know that that's necessary. As I noted in a previous post (which you referenced in one of your own), it is recognized that you are asking specific questions and getting specific answers.
Thanks. I was beginning to think I was going crazy.

What I will do moving forward is separate out* the rhetoric of broadly complaining from the actual requests for help. I will take responsibility for making readers slog through the unhelpful anguish when all they are really trying to do is help.

*maybe I'll use < rant > tags. I can't promise that I won't resort to a little ranting, but I'll be more mindful of readers' time.
 
  • #87
DaveC426913 said:
maybe I'll use < rant > tags
You could use the "spoiler" tag to hide it so people would only read it if they chose to.
 
  • #88
Hey DaveC426913, hang in there. I have managed to keep clear of Apple products for decades, for precisely the troubles you are having. The Apple Way: it Will be done the way We want it; efficency, customizing and documentation be d*mnd!

I actually find this thread somewhat entertaining, unfortunately it comes at your expense. :cry:

I commend you for your perseverance and professionialism in following thru on your project!

Cheers,
Tom
 
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  • #89
PeterDonis said:
I ... wonder why in tarnation Apple products have any kind of reputation for usability.
They did one thing right almost exactly 23 years ago. Everything else is BS.
 
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  • #90
Tom.G said:
The Apple Way: it Will be done the way We want it; efficency, customizing and documentation be d*mnd!

I've never understood why Windows users say this. In this thread alone we have discussed four different ways to switch from one app to another. I don't used tabbed browsing or minimize windows because I prefer other ways to do those things. I think you just don't know the Mac as well as Windows, and so assume that there is nothing left to know.
 
  • #91
What's strange is that, when I was on the PC side of the fence, the Mac grass looked so incredibly green.

I envied what I was led to believe was the pinnacle of user-centred design and functionality.

My motto used to be: "Someday (when I can afford it) I will own a Mac. Because for me a computer should be a tool not a hobby."

(By that I meant how much time one must spend configuring and troubleshooting software and hardware on a PC, whereas Mac was all built-in and just worked.)

But that was a long time ago...
 
  • #92
I think that is the answer. Tabbing to an app will not un-minimize windows. So I just don't minimize apps.

The Mac is not as easy or consistant as it used to be, but I've seen no improvement from windows in 20 years. My friends that use windows still seem to have more problems and get a lot less done.
 
  • #93
Algr said:
I've never understood why Windows users say this. In this thread alone we have discussed four different ways to switch from one app to another.
(...none of which I have actually worked correctly for me, not to put too fine a point on it.)

Algr said:
I don't used tabbed browsing or minimize windows because I prefer other ways to do those things. I think you just don't know the Mac as well as Windows, and so assume that there is nothing left to know.
I have to acknowledge that this is possible. That I am the victim from "Mother Goose Syndrome" - the strong preference for whatever thing we learned first, regardless of whether it's objectively better.
 
  • #94
@DaveC426913 anybody switching from Windows to Mac and vice-versa especially due to a work mandate has my sympathy.

Ive gone thru this numerous times from GE timesharing to PC DOS to Topview to OS/2 to AIX to Taligent to Linux to MacOS and back to Windows with WSL. As I switched jobs and projects.

It’s painful, impacts your productivity and enhances your scripting survival skills in this new world of AI agent technology.

Jedi
 
  • #95
DaveC426913 said:
(...none of which I have actually gotten to work correctly, not to put too fine a point on it.)

I can't really reproduce the problem you are having on my machine, other than windows being closed or minimized. If that happens, you just go to the dock. That is probably why I don't minimize programs, and instead just let windows overlap.

It would be nice if the red button would change to a Q when pressing it resulted in quitting the program.

jedishrfu said:
Ive gone thru this numerous times from GE timesharing to PC DOS to Topview to OS/2 to AIX to Taligent to Linux to MacOS and back to Windows with WSL. As I switched jobs and projects.
I've seriously considered Linux. How hard is it? Some people say that the interface is pure Windows-clone with no new ideas.
 
  • #96
DaveC426913 said:
Your suggestion of the F3 and a few other things was very helpful.

But if I am leading anyone to believe I am not taking advice and that I don't think this is helping me, then I have seriously misrepresented myself. That's at least two people now who seem to read this as if I'm just ranting and rejecting all helpful advice. It may be better if I just close this thread rather than do further damage. I will consider.

F3? That was someone else. I never use that feature.

Close the thread if you want or keep it going. It doesn't matter. There's no damage.
 
  • #97
Working with the linux GUI ala Gnome… is similar to the windows experience but with all the program names changing to their linux equivalents.

In windows there’s the Microsoft Office suite vs in Linux theres the Libre Office suite. Similar capability, different icons, labels and menu placement.
 
  • #98
JT Smith said:
F3? That was someone else. I never use that feature.
Got my features crossed. Sry
 
  • #99
That's a critical difference between Windows and MacOS. You shift from a right-leaning GUI window frame (minimize, maximize, exit) to a left-leaning window frame (exit, minimize, maximize features).

Its kind of like that Star Trek TOS episode with Frank Gorshen where the two protagonists are half white and have black split right down the center. The captain asks them why they are fighting still since everyone has died on their planet and one responds because he's white on the right.

1728012300003.png


and then there's the Mac vs Windows commercials:

 

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