Help! Old PC dog has to learn new Mac tricks

[Vanadium 50]

Isn't this asking for data corruption when the two instances incorrectly wrote into each other's files?

PCs could do this since the mid-1980's.

Indeed, you could even lock part of a file - two people could update the same database, provided a) the application supported this, and b) they weren't trying to update the exact same thing. But Bob could update one customer's address at the same time Mary was updating another.

 

[Algr]

Even with a Mac you can have two separate apps open the same file. But typically one wouldn't do this with the same app so it's a red herring. There is a difference between having a tab and an instance of an app. If you don't appreciate that difference it's possibly because you haven't experienced it.

Yes, I don't know what "Tab" means in this case. I use tabs regularly in web browsing, but I am recalling this from pre-internet days. I'm describing the opposite situation: A program open twice on a single machine, presumably working on two different files.

My issue was that if a program, (for example a word processor) was designed to open multiple documents at once, why would you instead open multiple instances of the program? What is the benefit? The cost is that it seems dangerous to rely on windows not to confuse two programs with identical names and code, by giving files aimed at one to the other. For example getting their scratch files or working data mixed up, thus randomly merging parts of two files.

Another problem I could forsee is things not working due to the user not realizing that they have two different instances of an application open. For example trying to use the "clone" tool in an art program from one document to another. If the tool bars are on top of each other, then the user would have no idea why the clone tool was not working. If they were in different places, remembering what identical window went to what document would be an interface nightmare.

The other day a friend wanted to log into two different gmail accounts on her iPhone via her Chrome browser. She couldn't do it. I suggested she open the second one in Safari. Then it worked. But if she could have simply opened a second instance of Chrome she wouldn't have needed Safari. That's probably not the best example though.

That's the only example of it being useful I've heard. It's based on a limitation of the program. I use multiple browsers like this. Having different browser icons makes it easier to understand where I am at at a given moment.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm describing the opposite situation: A program open twice on a single machine, presumably working on two different files.

Yes, that's what we're discussing.

My issue was that if a program, (for example a word processor) was designed to open multiple documents at once, why would you instead open multiple instances of the program?

Hang on.

1. It was not granted that we were talking about a program that is designed to open multiple documents at once. We were really just talking about programs of which multiple instances can be run.

2. Even if we were, it's not like developers just never thought of what might happen if they allowed this functionality. Programs that can run in multiple instances are designed to play well with others; they keep to their own sandboxes.

The cost is that it seems dangerous to rely on windows not to confuse two programs with identical names and code, by giving files aimed at one to the other. For example getting their scratch files or working data mixed up, thus randomly merging parts of two files.

Sure - if they were designed badly and buggy. And the same can be said for tabbed programs where multiple files are opened by one app: if it's not designed to handle that usage, it will break!

Another problem I could forsee is things not working due to the user not realizing that they have two different instances of an application open. For example trying to use the "clone" tool in an art program from one document to another. If the tool bars are on top of each other, then the user would have no idea why the clone tool was not working. If they were in different places, remembering what identical window went to what document would be an interface nightmare.

This is entirely subjective - a matter of what the user is familiar with.

If a user comes from an environment where one file = one app, then they will be comfortable with tabbing through multiple fully-functional instances of the same app. But they will be flummoxed by the tab structure of multiple files = one app.

If a user comes from an environment with a tab structure and multiple files = one app, then they will be comfortable with tabbing within a single app. But they will be flummoxed by the multi structure of one file = one app.

In other words - to mangle a loose analogy: PC users are as mystified by the illogic of the Mac paradigm** as much as Mac users are mystified by the illogic of the PC paradigm.

**thus, the very raison d'etre of this thread.

That's the only example of it being useful I've heard. It's based on a limitation of the program. I use multiple browsers like this. Having different browser icons makes it easier to understand where I am at at a given moment.

Simply because you're used to that paradigm.

I still find myself robotically alt-tabbing between different facets of my project, forgetting that all the facets are not separate apps, but just different tabs within my browser (Is there even a kb-combo that lets you cycle between browser tabs? Maybe...).

 

[JT Smith]

I still find myself robotically alt-tabbing between different facets of my project, forgetting that all the facets are not separate apps, but just different tabs within my browser (Is there even a kb-combo that lets you cycle between browser tabs? Maybe...).

If you're talking about a Mac it's command-tab that shifts focus between all of the apps and tabs that are open. If you just want to cycle through the tabs of a particular app it's command-`. I can't remember the keyboard shortcuts for Windows.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There is still much confusion about interface vs. instance. If I open two files in FriendlyWare, whether I switch between tabs or windows is a question of interface. That is largely independent from whether I am running two instances of FriendlyWare or not.

Depending on how the OS and the application handle thing, I could be running one or two, irrespective of whether it is a window or tab that is used. Further, even if I am running two instances, they may share the (presumably static) code in memory as I do this. Computers could do this at least as far back as the 1970's.

 

[JT Smith]

I think in this context it is less about the implementation and more about the user experience. Tabs and windows aren't the issue. It's about independence. Tabs are by nature bound to a single app instance/entity. But whether a window is part of a group of windows or stands alone has to do with how it works. The question is whether the window stands alone or is bound to the others in some way.

An example: I open a text file in Windows. Then another. They are completely separate from one another. With a Mac, opening the first file opens the app that then remains open even if I close both of the files. There are a set of menus at the top of the screen that work at the level of the app, not the individual windows.

 

[Algr]

Keeping a program open without documents is useful if the program is complex and takes a lot of time and memory to load. If you close one document and then open another, you won’t be reloading the program again.

Multiple instances of programs also seems like a waste of ram. Why load the same code twice?

Sure - if they were designed badly and buggy. And the same can be said for tabbed programs where multiple files are opened by one app: if it's not designed to handle that usage, it will break!

Badly designed programs are a fact of life. But if a program opens multiple documents then you can be certain that the programmers considered that situation. It isn’t something that just automatically happens. But if ANY program can be open in multiple instances, then you can’t be sure that the programmers have considered everything that could go wrong in this situation.

 

[DaveC426913]

Multiple instances of programs also seems like a waste of ram. Why load the same code twice?

With all due respect, just because it seems that way to you doesn't make it so. You don't know or speak for the habits of others, or the programs they use.

Many programs are not RAM intensive. Small utilities, such as Command Prompt are very handy to have open as multiple independent apps running. That's just one example.

 

[JT Smith]

You can be nearly certain that programmers have NOT considered everything for all but the most trivial of programs. But code that can be used simultaneously by multiple processes is an old idea. Do you think each app has a separate copy of the OS?

I don't know what Windows did or does now when a new "instance" is opened. I suppose one could monitor memory usage and see if it's a problem. I never had a problem twenty years ago when I was using Windows 2000 on what would now be unusably primitive hardware.

 

[DaveC426913]

How does one move files between folders on a Mac?

This is my finder:

I want to move that top image into a "nephew" folder: Documents/LindenHallProject/

I see no way of accessing the target folder without moving away from and losing the source folder.

In File Explorer on a PC, that left pane would show my drive(s) and would allow me to drill down to any folder and then simply drag-and-drop from the right pane to the left pane.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you're talking about a Mac it's command-tab that shifts focus between all of the apps and tabs that are open. If you just want to cycle through the tabs of a particular app it's command-`. I can't remember the keyboard shortcuts for Windows.

Cmd-tab is weird. It looks like it's cycling between open apps, but if I choose one it is as likely to not bring-to-front.

Example:
I have six apps open: Chrome, Slack, Outlook, Notes, Finder and Teams.
Cmd-Tab shows me all six.
I am currently viewing Chrome.

• I Cmd-tab over to Teams and release, nothing happens - I'm still looking at Chrome.
• I Cmd-tab over to Slack and release, nothing happens - I'm still looking at Chrome.
• etc.
• I Cmd-tab over to Finder and release and boom - I'm viewing Finder, as expected.

What chicken-bones-and-tea-leaves configuration determines which I get to tab to and which I don't?

A feature that behaves erratically is worse than no feature at all, since it works just often enough that I keep trying it, only to waste my time madly cycling through my apps until I realize how fruitless it is and give up.

 

[jtbell]

How does one move files between folders on a Mac?

Open a second Finder window. In it, navigate to the destination folder. Drag the file from the first Finder window and drop it in the second one.

To get the second Finder window, first make sure "Finder" appears at the left of the menu bar at the top of the screen (if it doesn't, click on the Finder window that you already have open) , then choose File > New Finder Window, or hit command-N.

 

[DaveC426913]

Open a second Finder window.

Why is everything on a Mac so laborious?

Even taking simple screenshot is laborious. It dumps it on my desktop - which is fine - but why not put in my my clipboard while you're at it?

 

[DaveC426913]

So, when all is said and done, what is the preferred way to "tab" between open apps? Cmd-tab is highly inconsistent, so there must be a way Mac-adept users do it.

 

[Algr]

Why is everything on a Mac so laborious?

Even taking simple screenshot is laborious. It dumps it on my desktop - which is fine - but why not put in my my clipboard while you're at it?

So, when all is said and done, what is the preferred way to "tab" between open apps? Cmd-tab is highly inconsistent, so there must be a way Mac-adept users do it.

I usually don't tab, I use 'Mission control" instead. I press the down on the mouse wheel, and all windows shrink and uncover each other. Then I click on the window I want, and that program comes forward.

 

[DaveC426913]

It astonishes me the routine things that are so onerous on a Mac. (Do they have ANY user experience people working there?)

OK:
I have two Word docs open (or two of any application):
WP sites access is in-view,
Todo List happens to be minimized.

Is there ANY way of bringing up that minimized document - say, with a keyboard command -anything that doesn't involve me having to

1. stop what I'm doing
2. pull up the dock (which takes the longest 1.5 seconds of my life) or the top menu bar,
3. find the word icon,
4. right click on it to bring up the Word menu, and finally
5. click on my doc?

 

[Tom.G]

(Do they have ANY user experience people working there?)

Unlikely, they seem to be driven by bankers.

 

[davenn]

Rd filesAs a Mac user, this struck me as being a really bad idea when I first heard about it. Isn't this asking for data corruption when the two instances incorrectly wrote into each otrd filesher's files? I still don't remember what is achieved by doing this?

I can have open several spreadsheets, word files at the same time
Absolutely essential thing I need to be able to do.
There's never any data mixing up/corruption

 

[DaveC426913]

I can have open several spreadsheets, word files at the same time

OK, how do you move between them if one happens to be minimized? Is the any key command that will do that, or am I forced to do it the long way?

 

[davenn]

OK, how do you move between them if one happens to be minimized? Is the any key command that will do that, or am I forced to do it the long way?

Hi Dave
Sorry to hear about your hassles
I was responding to algr's comment. Was so surprised by his comment that I had to respond.
On a PC it's just Alt-Tab to move between any open programs (apps, for the youngin's)

Are you the only one at your new workplace using a Mac? There's noone else that could help with Mac functions

PS...Alt-tab works regardless of if the app is already opened or minimised

 

[davenn]

Multiple instances of programs also seems like a waste of ram. Why load the same code twice?

You still don't understand the need

 

[DaveC426913]

I was responding to algr's comment.

I know. I seized on it.

On a PC it's just Alt-Tab to move between any open programs (apps, for the youngin's)

Indeed!

Are you the only one at your new workplace using a Mac?

Not by a long shot.

There's noone else that could help with Mac functions

Asked. No one knows.

Not even the IT dept.

PS...Alt-tab works regardless of if the app is already opened or minimised

Indeed it does. In a civilized OS.

 

[davenn]

Asked. No one knows.

WOW

 

[DaveC426913]

WOW

When I went to IT (on Day One of classes starting), the guy told me "Alt-tab doesn't work if the document is closed. If it's open and minimized, it will work."

I tried to 'splain and show him that that the doc being closed wasn't the problem (because, duh), that it was a problem with open-but-minimized docs**, but I could see his eyes had glazed over, and I left without a solution.

 

[davenn]

When I went to IT (on Day One of classes starting), the guy told me "Alt-tab doesn't work if the document is closed. If it's open and minimized, it will work."

I tried to 'splain and show him that that the doc being closed wasn't the problem (because, duh), that it was a problem with open-but-minimized docs**, but I could see his eyes had glazed over, and I left without a solution.

Far out!!
They don't make IT techs like they used to
That is so bad

 

[JT Smith]

I think you have to use the mouse. Or buy an app (there's one called "Alt-tab") that will give you that ability. It is a weakness but so much of modern computer use is mouse dependent. Most people who are younger than 50 don't care about keyboard shortcuts.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think you have to use the mouse. Or buy an app (there's one called "Alt-tab") that will give you that ability.

I will do this. Everyone i ask about this tells me they have installed a utility like this.

I was gobsmacked that Mac users needed an aftermarket tool to tab between apps.

"Here's your new iCar! What? You want to turn left? No one's ever asked for that. There's a third party app you can try..."

It is a weakness but so much of modern computer use is mouse dependent. Most people who are younger than 50 don't care about keyboard shortcuts.

I used to be a rabid mouse guy, not a keyboard shortcut guy.

But there's a big difference between application-specific kb-shortcuts and OS kb-shortcuts.

I really depend on operations like app switching and doc switching to be instant and invisible, requiring zero brain cycles, only muscle-memory.

 

[JT Smith]

I was gobsmacked that Mac users needed an aftermarket tool to tab between apps.

I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.

Do you use a keyboard shortcut to put your Mac to sleep? Or to force quit a misbehaving app? How about to open the preferences for the app in focus?

Most people just use their mouse.

 

[DaveC426913]

I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.

How? Like this?

1. stop what I'm doing
2. pull up the dock (which takes the longest 1.5 seconds of my life) or the top menu bar,
3. find the word icon,
4. right click on it to bring up the Word menu,
5. click on my doc,
6. Go back to my keyboard

I could grow old and die in that time.

Most people just use their mouse.

I wonder if it's because of the nature of my work. I often have to have at least four apps/docs running simultaneously and am going between them constantly.

Perhaps your 'most people' stick to one app at a time and it isn't a big deal.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.

Those of us who have been here a long time will know that nothing will ever, ever change his mind. Or even get him to say "It's a personal choice, and I would have preferred it done the other way". The best we can do is wait for him to run out of steam. Yes, yes, people are doing it all wrong. We know.

I learned back in the day of the WordStar diamond that complaining that :The user interface is doing it all wrong!" is not a convincing argument. (Unlike say, "People keep typing Ctl-A when they really mean Alt-A."