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Re-tweeted by Elon Musk today. An interesting historical perpsective.
Click For Summary
Discussion Overview
The discussion revolves around the history and implications of public education, exploring various perspectives on its effectiveness, the role of government, and comparisons with other educational systems worldwide. Participants engage in a mix of historical analysis, personal experiences, and critiques of current educational policies.
Discussion Character
- Debate/contested
- Historical
- Conceptual clarification
Main Points Raised
- Some participants argue in favor of a universal requirement for education, suggesting that while the government may not have executed it well, the concept of standardized education is fundamentally beneficial.
- Others point out that the federal government does not prescribe curricula, noting that initiatives like Common Core are state-adopted and funded by private entities, raising questions about the role of government in education.
- A historical perspective is presented, indicating that many countries rely solely on state-funded education, which some participants use to argue for or against the U.S. system.
- One participant shares personal experiences from the Scottish education system, contrasting it with the U.S. system and expressing concerns about the quality of education in public schools.
- Critiques are made regarding the motivations of influential figures like Elon Musk, suggesting that their ideologies may not align with the best interests of education and democracy.
- Another participant reflects on their experience in Catholic schools, discussing the limitations of religious education compared to public schooling and the challenges of overcoming indoctrination.
- Concerns are raised about the short-sightedness of businesses benefiting from an educated workforce without investing in education, highlighting the long-term societal impacts of such decisions.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants express a range of views, with no clear consensus on the effectiveness or future of public education. Disagreements exist regarding the role of government, the quality of education, and the motivations behind educational policies.
Contextual Notes
Some discussions reference the influence of private funding on educational standards and the varying quality of education across different systems, highlighting the complexity of the topic without resolving these issues.
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and, do you argue in favor of that point of view?
It is, certainly, a contentious point of view and I can see arguments on both sides, but I come down on the side of it being better that their be a universal requirement for education and that it be more or less standardized.
I do NOT think that the government has always done a good job at it, but for me it's a step too far to say that it has been a bad idea overall.
The stunningly poor performance of our students today is a good argument against the current system, but that's more the parents fault and the fault of our overly permissive society than it is of the basic concept of government mandated and standardized education.
It is, certainly, a contentious point of view and I can see arguments on both sides, but I come down on the side of it being better that their be a universal requirement for education and that it be more or less standardized.
I do NOT think that the government has always done a good job at it, but for me it's a step too far to say that it has been a bad idea overall.
The stunningly poor performance of our students today is a good argument against the current system, but that's more the parents fault and the fault of our overly permissive society than it is of the basic concept of government mandated and standardized education.
- #3
gleem
Science Advisor
Education Advisor
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I don't think the federal government prescribes any curriculum. The infamous common core is a private endeavor and is voluntarily adopted by states. The Gates foundation contributed $35M to sponsors of CC like IBM, Intel, and Prudential Services, although it had support by the Department of Education. State and local elected officials generally determine curricula.
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From a purely historical perspective, most of the rest of the world lives in countries where the only possible option for education was from state-funded schools and universities.phinds said:
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Which does not answer my question regarding education in the US.PeroK said:
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I can only speak for myself and the Scottish education system that enabled me to obtain a university education. And rendered me fit for more than to slave 14 hours a day in Musk's lithium mines.phinds said:
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This meme only shows - once more - that Musk is only interested in spreading his personal ideologies and propaganda and not in education.
Our modern democracies actually require an educated citizenry that can make rational voting decisions. This alone is contrary to the interests of those in power, whose only interest is to maximize susceptibility to their demagogic theses.
A public school system may not be optimal, but the alternative is a disaster.
Our modern democracies actually require an educated citizenry that can make rational voting decisions. This alone is contrary to the interests of those in power, whose only interest is to maximize susceptibility to their demagogic theses.
A public school system may not be optimal, but the alternative is a disaster.
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Rive
Science Advisor
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I think it's rather an 'interesting' peep into a really twisted mind...PeroK said:
- #9
Klystron
Gold Member
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My childhood education in Catholic schools was fairly obvious to astute PF members. Growing up, I felt compassion for the public school educated majority deprived of critical thinking capacity. How can one express complex ideas with an inadequate vocabulary?
Still, religious schools especially in isolation can be pernicious far beyond public indoctrination. In my experience at Catholic schools we wasted inordinate time reciting banal catechism and kneeling in church but I still enjoy singing in multiple languages. Learning Latin opens windows into our history and language but I mainly studied science at home.
Private Catholic schools may have been a viable alternative to public grammar schools in some places at some times due to a broad syllabus and historical perspective, but this hardly applies to all religious indoctrination, Catholic or otherwise. Us religiously trained minority must expend considerable energy overcoming superstitious nonsense inherent in religion.
The future of general education in highly technical cultures resides in properly prepared and deseminated media regrettably vulnerable to manipulation and deceit.
Still, religious schools especially in isolation can be pernicious far beyond public indoctrination. In my experience at Catholic schools we wasted inordinate time reciting banal catechism and kneeling in church but I still enjoy singing in multiple languages. Learning Latin opens windows into our history and language but I mainly studied science at home.
Private Catholic schools may have been a viable alternative to public grammar schools in some places at some times due to a broad syllabus and historical perspective, but this hardly applies to all religious indoctrination, Catholic or otherwise. Us religiously trained minority must expend considerable energy overcoming superstitious nonsense inherent in religion.
The future of general education in highly technical cultures resides in properly prepared and deseminated media regrettably vulnerable to manipulation and deceit.
- #10
Ken Fabian
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Surely businesses are advantaged by a pool of potential employees who were educated by past taxpayers, just as they are advantaged by roads and infrastructure payed for by past taxpayers.
Of course business owners right now may see near term advantage by reduced taxes from not funding near term education and don't see the longer term societal and economic impacts as their concern - especially if they can import workers who got educated by some other nation's taxpayers. Short sighted but not seen as their job.
And there are those 'ideological' elements to the justifications; the trouble is where governments are short sighted, overly (or narrowly) ideological themselves - or politicians are just weak and willing to be persuaded by lobbyists or by strategic donations and personal inducements.
Of course business owners right now may see near term advantage by reduced taxes from not funding near term education and don't see the longer term societal and economic impacts as their concern - especially if they can import workers who got educated by some other nation's taxpayers. Short sighted but not seen as their job.
And there are those 'ideological' elements to the justifications; the trouble is where governments are short sighted, overly (or narrowly) ideological themselves - or politicians are just weak and willing to be persuaded by lobbyists or by strategic donations and personal inducements.
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Empathetic reminder of our politics policy
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/guidelines-for-discussing-speculative-topics.716057/
For more free political discussion, head to our sister community https://civicswatch.com
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/guidelines-for-discussing-speculative-topics.716057/
For more free political discussion, head to our sister community https://civicswatch.com