How Can Rocket Fuel Expulsion Maximize a Car's Kinetic Energy?

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Carla1985
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Fuel Rockets
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between rocket fuel expulsion and maximizing a car's kinetic energy. Participants explore the physics of momentum conservation and kinetic energy calculations in the context of a car propelled by a rocket engine. The scope includes theoretical reasoning and mathematical derivations related to the problem posed.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about relating the problem to concepts discussed in class, particularly regarding the use of velocity versus speed and the variables involved.
  • Another participant suggests using conservation of momentum to set up an equation involving the mass expelled and the resulting speed change.
  • A participant proposes a momentum equation and discusses the implications of modeling forces, concluding that the force is zero in their scenario.
  • There is a discussion about integrating the derived equations to find relationships between mass and speed during fuel expulsion.
  • Participants explore the final kinetic energy equation and how to substitute variables derived from earlier discussions.
  • One participant questions the notation used in their notes regarding the transition from finite to infinitesimal quantities, seeking clarification on the mathematical reasoning behind it.
  • A later reply clarifies the difference between finite intervals and infinitesimals, providing insight into the mathematical framework being discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the use of conservation of momentum and the mathematical relationships involved, but there remains some uncertainty regarding the application of these concepts and the specific derivations needed to maximize kinetic energy. The discussion does not reach a consensus on all points, particularly regarding the interpretation of certain mathematical steps.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding assumptions made about forces acting on the system and the conditions under which the equations are derived. Some participants express confusion about specific mathematical transitions, indicating a need for further clarification on those points.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students studying dynamics, particularly those interested in rocket propulsion, momentum conservation, and kinetic energy calculations in physics. It may also benefit those preparing for exams in related subjects.

Carla1985
Messages
91
Reaction score
0
Really struggling with this one. In class we used velocity not speed for starters and had $m$ and $m+\delta t$. I can't figure out how to relate it to this question at all. If someone could point me in the right direction that would be great.

A car is propelled by a rocket engine along a smooth straight horizontalroad. Initially, the car is at rest and has mass M0. The spent fuel is expelledwith a constant speed c relative to the car. Show that the kinetic energy ofthe car when all the fuel has been used up is

\[
\frac{1}{2} M_1c^2 (ln(\frac{M_1}{M_2}))^2
\] What proportion of the initial mass M0 should the initial mass of fuel be inorder to maximise the kinetic energy of the car when all the full has been usedup? [Hint for last part: note that the kinetic energy will be zero if either M1 = 0 orM1 = M0, so to find the value of M1 for which the kinetic energy is maximisedas M1 varies between 0 and M0, you need to differentiate the kinetic energywith respect to M1]
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Carla1985 said:
Really struggling with this one. In class we used velocity not speed for starters and had $m$ and $m+\delta t$. I can't figure out how to relate it to this question at all. If someone could point me in the right direction that would be great.

A car is propelled by a rocket engine along a smooth straight horizontalroad. Initially, the car is at rest and has mass M0. The spent fuel is expelledwith a constant speed c relative to the car. Show that the kinetic energy ofthe car when all the fuel has been used up is

\[
\frac{1}{2} M_1c^2 (ln(\frac{M_1}{M_2}))^2
\] What proportion of the initial mass M0 should the initial mass of fuel be inorder to maximise the kinetic energy of the car when all the full has been usedup? [Hint for last part: note that the kinetic energy will be zero if either M1 = 0 orM1 = M0, so to find the value of M1 for which the kinetic energy is maximisedas M1 varies between 0 and M0, you need to differentiate the kinetic energywith respect to M1]


Hey Carla! :)

Suppose at some time t we have mass m and speed v.
Then we expel an infinitesimal amount of mass dm.
As a result our speed increases by dv, while at the same time the expelled mass goes backward with a relative speed c.

Can you set up an equation for conservation of momentum before and after expelling the infinitesimal mass dm?
 
re: Rockets & fuel expulsion

I have:

$m(t)*\frac{dv}{dt}+\frac{dm(t)}{dt}* \textbf{c}=\textbf{F}$

I think $\textbf{F}$ is 0 as we aren't modelling any forces on it atm.
So its there fore equivalent to

$\frac{d}{dt}(v(t)+\textbf{c}*ln(m(t))=0$

I think that's right :/
 
re: Rockets & fuel expulsion

Carla1985 said:
I have:

$m(t)*\frac{dv}{dt}+\frac{dm(t)}{dt}* \textbf{c}=\textbf{F}$

I think $\textbf{F}$ is 0 as we aren't modelling any forces on it atm.
So its there fore equivalent to

$\frac{d}{dt}(v(t)+\textbf{c}*ln(m(t))=0$

I think that's right :/

That looks about right. :)
But we're not really interested in t, which does complicate the equation.

So let's write it as:
$$m\ dv + c\ dm = 0$$
$$dv = -\frac c m dm$$
Can you integrate that?
 
re: Rockets & fuel expulsion

oh ok. yes i think:

$v=-c\ ln(m)$
 
Re: Rockets & fule expulsion

I know I need to use the kinetic energy equation here but I'm not sure exactly how
 
Last edited:
Re: Rockets & fule expulsion

Carla1985 said:
oh ok. yes i think:

$v=-c\ ln(m)$

That should be:
$$v_{final}=\left. -c\ln(m) \phantom{\frac{}{}} \right|_{m_{initial}}^{m_{final}}$$

Carla1985 said:
I know I need to use the kinetic energy equation here but I'm not sure exactly how

Final kinetic energy is:
$$\frac 1 2 m_{final} {v_{final}}^2$$
Substitute?
 
Re: Rockets & fule expulsion

I like Serena said:
That should be:
$$v_{final}=\left. -c\ln(m) \phantom{\frac{}{}} \right|_{m_{initial}}^{m_{final}}$$
Final kinetic energy is:
$$\frac 1 2 m_{final} {v_{final}}^2$$
Substitute?

Ah yes so $v_1=-cln(M_1)+cln(M_0)=cln(M_0)-cln(M_1)=cln(\frac{M_0}{M_1})$

and substitute this in for $v_1$ in the energy eqn
 
Just out of curiosity, did you realize that conservation of momentum yielded:
$$mv=(m-dm)(v+dv) + dm(v-c)$$
 
  • #10
Hi, yes in some of our workings out we had that the change in momentum is

\[
\int_{t}^{t+\delta m}\textbf{F}\ ds=(m+\delta m)(v+\delta v)-\delta m(v-c)-mv
\]

which obviously if we arent modelling any forces is equal to 0 so gives your equation :) Thanks for the help btw, it really is appreciated.
 
  • #11
Hi, sorry to be an absolute pain but my exam is in 2 days n there's a part of this I'm still not fully understanding. When deriving the rocket equation, this is what our notes say:

"Now we suppose that a force F is acting on the rocket during this process, then the impulse is:

$\int_{t}^{t+\delta t}F dt=F\delta t$

assuming that F is continuous in the small interval [t, t + δt]. Therefore considering the change in momentum,
(m + δm)(v + δv) δm(v c) mv F δt.

If we divide by δt and let δt 0 then we find,

$m\frac{dv}{dt}+\frac{dm}{dt}c=0$

This the rocket equation. "

I'm confused by the swapping about of d and delta. Would someone mind explaining what is happening please when they have a little time :) thanks x
 
  • #12
Hey Carla1985!

The symbol $\delta t$ represents a very small time interval.
The infinitesimal $dt$ represents a time interval that is infinitely small, that is, $\delta t$ taken to the limit where it is zero.

For instance the average acceleration over interval $$\delta t$$ starting at time t is $$a_{average} = \frac {\delta v}{\delta t}$$.
The actual acceleration at time t is $$a = \frac {dv}{dt} = \lim_{\delta t \to 0} \frac {\delta v}{\delta t}$$.

Good luck! ;)
 
  • #13
Aaaaah, that makes sense. Once again, thank you :)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
7K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
6K
Replies
8
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
20K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
9K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K