How certain is the uncertainty principle?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the accuracy of measurements in quantum mechanics, particularly in relation to the uncertainty principle. Participants explore the implications of attempting to measure a particle's position with increasing precision and the potential consequences, such as the creation of black holes. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects, mathematical reasoning, and the interplay between quantum mechanics and general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that achieving more accurate measurements of a particle's position requires increasingly higher energy, potentially leading to the creation of a black hole.
  • Others challenge the clarity of references provided, asking for specific sources to support claims about energy requirements for measurement accuracy.
  • A participant suggests that the relationship between measurement accuracy and energy can be likened to the Fourier transform, where higher accuracy in time requires higher frequency components.
  • There is a discussion about the limitations of current theories, noting that without a unification of quantum mechanics and general relativity, definitive answers regarding the creation of microscopic black holes remain elusive.
  • Some participants express a desire for more mathematical rigor in the discussion, while others feel that the conversation can proceed without it.
  • One participant humorously remarks on the certainty of uncertainty, indicating a level of acceptance of the inherent ambiguities in the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of mathematical detail in the discussion and the implications of measurement accuracy. There is no consensus on the relationship between energy requirements and the creation of black holes, nor on the adequacy of references provided.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the dependence on definitions and the unresolved nature of the relationship between quantum mechanics and general relativity, particularly regarding the implications for black hole formation.

dsaun777
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How accurate of a measurement can we make on the position of a particle? I heard you need more and more energy to get a measurement more accurate. Would the energy needed to be infinitesimal accurate create a black hole upon. Measurement?
 
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An infinitesimal is not a finite number.
 
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dsaun777 said:
I heard you need more and more energy to get a measurement more accurate.
From where? Please give a reference.
 
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PeterDonis said:
From where? Please give a reference.
Leonard susskind
 
dsaun777 said:
Leonard susskind
That's not a reference, it's just a name. What specific textbook, paper, etc?
 
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PeterDonis said:
That's not a reference, it's just a name. What specific textbook, paper, etc?
I can't remember the exact paper or lecture yet. I will look for it and find it, not without some uncertainty...
 
PeroK said:
An infinitesimal is not a finite number.
I meant approaching an infinitesimally small value.
 
Weren't you a math major? You should know that a big plate of words is less helpful than an equation. And an undefined pointer to this big mess of words less so.

Can you write down your thoughts using equations?
 
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dsaun777 said:
How accurate of a measurement can we make on the position of a particle? I heard you need more and more energy to get a measurement more accurate. Would the energy needed to be infinitesimal accurate create a black hole upon. Measurement?
If I understand it right you mean that, just like in fourier transform, the more accurate you want to decompose a signal in time, the higher energy or frequenecy components to you need in the spectrum.

Similarly the more you want to determined position the larger momentum range do you need to get the information to confine the position. And this implies also focusing a lot of energy to almost a point, and at some point general relativity my suggest that a microscopic black hole may be created, which for other reasons than heisenbergs HUP limits our the ability of an external observer to probe into the small end of the continuum.

But as long as we have no unification of QM and GR, there is no definitive answer to this, as classical GR mainly refers to cosmological scale blackholes, not microscopic ones. QM, GR or both might need to be adjusted here. So it's a valid question I think.

/Fredrik
 
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  • #10
Yes, this is basically the situation I was referring to. I apologize for not making this statement more mathematically but I don't really see the need to. Despite my meager background in mathematics, I thought equations weren't necessary to start the discussion. But I would like to see mathematics also.
 
  • #11
We are pretty certain in uncertainty.
 

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