How comes the big bang singularity didn't need space and time?

[Abidal Sala]

Obviously before the big bang there was no space and no time, so how comes the big bang singularity itself existed without space and time? do black holes' singularities not need space and time to exist too? or at least in order for them to come and exist there has to be space and time at first place

 

[thorium1010]

Obviously before the big bang there was no space and no time, so how comes the big bang singularity itself existed without space and time? do black holes' singularities not need space and time to exist too? or at least in order for them to come and exist there has to be space and time at first place

I am not an expert in the field. As far, i have read from this forum nothing is known about the state of the universe at T = 0. However there are models or hypothesis about the state of the universe at the very beginning. Same with the black hole. At best from what i have read here, the universe was in a very dense state.

And singularity does not have explanatory power that gives us an understanding of the beginning of universe or inside a black hole.

 

[Radrook]

Obviously before the big bang there was no space and no time, so how comes the big bang singularity itself existed without space and time? do black holes' singularities not need space and time to exist too? or at least in order for them to come and exist there has to be space and time at first place

Here is a relevant excerpt that might be viewed as self-contradictory.

Stephen Hawking's Universe
Contributed by Stephen Hawking, Richard Talcott, Michio Kaku, Alan Guth, Lee Smolin, Marcelo Gleiser, Seth Shostak, Carlos Frenk, Barry Levine, Mohammad Riza, David Filkin, William Grant, Ellen Mendlow, David McCarthy, Gina Niemiec, Janette Afsharian, et al.


Singularitys

The destiny of all matter that falls into a black hole is to get crushed to a point of zero volume and infinite density—a singularity. General relativity also implies that our expanding universe began from a singularity.

A singularity is a region of space-time in which gravitational forces are so strong that even general relativity, the well-proven gravitational theory of Einstein, and the best theory we have for describing the structure of the universe, breaks down there. A singularity marks a point where the curvature of space-time is infinite, or, in other words, it possesses zero volume and infinite density. General relativity demands that singularities arise under two circumstances. 


First, a singularity must form during the creation of a black hole. When a very massive star reaches the end of its life, its core, which was previously held up by the pressure of the nuclear fusion that was taking place, collapses and all the matter in the core gets crushed out of existence at the singularity. Second, general relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/archive/hawking_universe.html

 

[Chronos]

Singularity means "we have no clue" in science speak. We need a theory of quantum gravity to rid ourselves of those enigmatic singularities. But, even that is unlikely to be enough to explain the origin of the universe. Even cyclical models merely defer the question backwards in time. Perhaps the universe has always existed in some form or another, even though that is not much of an answer. Sort of like saying you came from your parents [but, where did your parents come from?] Just about every imaginable explanation is probably unprovable. It's natures version of Godel's incompleteness theorem.

 

[Constantin]

Obviously before the big bang there was no space and no time, so how comes the big bang singularity itself existed without space and time? do black holes' singularities not need space and time to exist too? or at least in order for them to come and exist there has to be space and time at first place

The Universe was initially in a hot dense state. That's where the theories and evidence are very clear.

This doesn't mean it was a singularity.
If the Universe is infinite, that hot dense state was also infinite.
If the Universe is finite, in the initial state it must have been small. However even in this case the current theories don't go all the way to a singularity.

 

[bill alsept]

Even cyclical models merely defer the question backwards in time. Perhaps the universe has always existed in some form or another, even though that is not much of an answer.

But a good answer. It would be nice to know how the universe works and what its future holds. Where it came from seems less important.

 

[sahmgeek]

Singularity means "we have no clue" in science speak. We need a theory of quantum gravity to rid ourselves of those enigmatic singularities. But, even that is unlikely to be enough to explain the origin of the universe. Even cyclical models merely defer the question backwards in time. Perhaps the universe has always existed in some form or another, even though that is not much of an answer. Sort of like saying you came from your parents [but, where did your parents come from?] Just about every imaginable explanation is probably unprovable. It's natures version of Godel's incompleteness theorem.

"Origin" is a useful word for mortals. Probably not such a useful concept when trying to figure out the universe. There are many blocks to understanding this - language is just one of them (but a big one, i think). i realize this explanation is not scientific, but i think it's something worth considering.