How did America become a dominant global power?

[loseyourname]

rome in the early empire was a limited democracy

Actually, Rome in its early Republic days might be said to be somewhat democratic. There were no popular votes, however. It wasn't nearly as communitarian as Athens was.

are we a TRUE DEMOCRACY TODAY in the USA?
I THINK NOT just a less limited one then rome
as many still can't vote or don't and does the guy with them most votes "WIN"

Who can't vote? Do you think that a democracy should include children and felons? The electoral college is a bit of an oddity that doesn't seem to have any place in the modern day, but would you really consider it anti-democratic? In every race but the presidential, the guy with the most votes wins. As far as I know, only twice has a president won the electoral college without winning the popular vote.

and ATHENS with its allys and empire was bigger then most nations

Only the city-state of Athens was democratic. None of its allies or colonies were represented.

 

[evthis]

Athens was a city-state. The US was the first nation-state to have a true democracy.

You, my friend are mistaken. America is not a democracy. It is a republic. America elects people who will vote for the people. A democracy would allow the people to vote on the issues. Instead we elect people to vote for us. This situation is known as a republic...hence: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God indivisble

 

[russ_watters]

To nitpick a little more, a republic is a type of democracy, AKA a "representative democracy."

 

[evthis]

To nitpick a little more, a republic is a type of democracy, AKA a "representative democracy."

I can accept that but what are the fundamental principles that a democracy must include to be considered a democracy?

 

[cronxeh]

There have been 2 US Presidents that I regard as being 'idiots':
Eisenhowever and Truman

On June 14, 1954 President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

The original pledge of October 11th, 1892 was a work of art:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Heck I'll even accept the June 14th, 1923 version:

I pledge allegiance to the
Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

 

[loseyourname]

You, my friend are mistaken. America is not a democracy. It is a republic. America elects people who will vote for the people.

It's a republican, rather than communitarian, democracy. This isn't American Idol. It isn't a very good idea to let everyone push a button to vote on whether or not we will fund a certain program while they watch C-Span. Even Athens had councils. The only difference is that they weren't elected, they simply rotated through the entire population of male citizens.

 

[loseyourname]

There have been 2 US Presidents that I regard as being 'idiots':
Eisenhowever and Truman

How can you possibly not include Jackson and Harding on that list?

 

[Artman]

There have been 2 US Presidents that I regard as being 'idiots':
Eisenhowever and Truman

On June 14, 1954 President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

The original pledge of October 11th, 1892 was a work of art:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Heck I'll even accept the June 14th, 1923 version:

I pledge allegiance to the
Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Adding that line should mean nothing to those who do not believe in God. That line allows those in this country who do hold that belief to say that pledge without compromising their faith. That is separation of church and state, not the state endorsing religion.

 

[Janitor]

...Who can't vote? Do you think that a democracy should include children and felons?...

I know I am off-topic, but I sometimes toy with the idea that voting should be reformulated so that every citizen who is eligible to vote under the current rules would be able to cast a vote worth one point. Those who have paid income tax in the previous four years would get, in addition to that one voting point, additional voting points in proportion to the total income tax they have paid in the last four years.

No doubt there are problems with this, but at least I can claim it as an original thought; I have never heard it put forth by anybody else.

 

[russ_watters]

I can accept that but what are the fundamental principles that a democracy must include to be considered a democracy?

A democracy is any government where some aspects of it are chosen directly by the people.

 

[Smurf]

To nitpick a little more, a republic is a type of democracy, AKA a "representative democracy."

Calling it by a different name doesn't change the amount of influence a person can have in any given form of government.

A democracy is any government where some aspects of it are chosen directly by the people.

How about:
A democracy is any government which contains legal framework providing for any number of aspects of the government in question to be affected directly by the people.

This avoids the nasty loophole of what is 'chosen'

 

[franznietzsche]

A democracy is any government where some aspects of it are chosen directly by the people.

Democracy is the theory that the people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.

 

[matthyaouw]

I know I am off-topic, but I sometimes toy with the idea that voting should be reformulated so that every citizen who is eligible to vote under the current rules would be able to cast a vote worth one point. Those who have paid income tax in the previous four years would get, in addition to that one voting point, additional voting points in proportion to the total income tax they have paid in the last four years.

No doubt there are problems with this, but at least I can claim it as an original thought; I have never heard it put forth by anybody else.

Why should the views of someone of working age with a job be worth more than that of a senior citizen on a pension, a housewife/husband with no income of their own, a student who can't spare the time to get a job, or a low paid worker who doesn't qualify for taxation?
(I'm not familiar with the American system of taxation, so if I've misunderstood something major here, please correcct me.)

 

[matthyaouw]

Athens was a city-state. The US was the first nation-state to have a true democracy.

There was no unified Greece until relatively recently. A city state was entirely independant, and had no commitment to make to tis neighbours unless it was voluntary (like membership to the Delian League ("Athenian empire"). Yes, the Delian league did turn somewhat corrupt, but when I talk about Athens being the first democracy, I am talking about before the league was formed) so basically, they were like independant countries. I fail to see what difference the words 'nation state' or 'city state' have to who had the first democracy.

and ATHENS with its allys and empire was bigger then most nations

Only the city-state of Athens was democratic. None of its allies or colonies were represented

I assume you are talking abou the Delian League. No, it did not force its political ideals on others, but at the time of its formation, it is to my understanding that it was more comparable to NATO than an empire. It was a co-operation between various city states to pool resources to defeat the Persians, with Athens chosen as the leader due to its superior navy. Unfortunately its ideals did not hold for long and it did turn into something of an empire. Still, Athens was a democracy lonng before these days.

 

[loseyourname]

There was no unified Greece until relatively recently. A city state was entirely independant, and had no commitment to make to tis neighbours unless it was voluntary (like membership to the Delian League ("Athenian empire"). Yes, the Delian league did turn somewhat corrupt, but when I talk about Athens being the first democracy, I am talking about before the league was formed) so basically, they were like independant countries. I fail to see what difference the words 'nation state' or 'city state' have to who had the first democracy.

I thought the original statement was that the US was the first stable democratic nation. Maybe I was thinking of something else. Who knows. I wouldn't say it's the end of the world, would you?

I assume you are talking abou the Delian League. No, it did not force its political ideals on others, but at the time of its formation, it is to my understanding that it was more comparable to NATO than an empire.

I didn't call it an empire; Ray did.

Anyway, yeah, there were subnational societies that practiced democracy well before the US. Even many of the New England colonies used the town-hall communitarian form of governance (the settlements themselves, not the entire land-grants).

Okay, so I went back to see the original post you were responding to. The claim was the USA was the first democratic country. That claim is true. Athens was not a country.

 

[evthis]

Democracy is the theory that the people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.

Is this CAPITALISM and not DEMOCRACY of which franznietzche is speaking?

 

[matthyaouw]

Okay, so I went back to see the original post you were responding to. The claim was the USA was the first democratic country. That claim is true. Athens was not a country.

Apologies, I thought you were taking issue about whether Athens should be considered a democracy due to its status as a nation/not nation. I'd forgotton the wording of the original question and thought we were discussing the first democracy, rather than democratic nation.

 

[Smurf]

Athens was not a country.

What nonsense is this. What possible argument could you have that Athens was not a country?

 

[loseyourname]

What nonsense is this. What possible argument could you have that Athens was not a country?

Historical facts are not backed by arguments. Athens was a city-state. It spanned no more than several hundred square miles and certainly did not span the Peloponessian countryside.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you don't believe that ancient Athens was a city and not a country, go look at an old map or read any of the Platonic dialogues.

 

[Janitor]

Why should the views of someone of working age with a job be worth more than that of a senior citizen on a pension, a housewife/husband with no income of their own, a student who can't spare the time to get a job, or a low paid worker who doesn't qualify for taxation?...

Certain pensions do accrue income tax liability. Still, the points you bring up are good ones and are probably sufficient to keep the Janitor voting system from ever being implemented.

I have rejected much of my religious upbringing, but I guess parts of it are hard to shed. The Bible says, "The man who does not work ought not to eat." My gut feeling is that this idea is on the right track, with obvious exceptions being made in our modern world for students, retirees, certain types of handicaps, etc. If the writer of that scripture could be brought via time machine into today's world, he might well write, "The man who does not pay taxes to support his government ought not have the power to determine the direction his government is going to take."

 

[tribdog]

I've always thought that the reason America is so powerful is because we have so many freedoms. When people are free to do what they want, they usually do the "morally right" thing. the greatest number of people are doing what is right for the greatest number of people. There is a reason why something is called the "right" thing to do, there is a benefit to it. these benefits have added up. Sure the natural resources are great, but any of the OPEC nations can afford all the resources they want.
I also think that we are great because, as Bill Murray said, "we are a mutts" we have the most diverse population on the planet and since, in my opinion, people are mostly good we get what is good about each different culture and all that adds up as well.

 

[spender]

I've always thought that the reason America is so powerful is because we have so many freedoms. When people are free to do what they want, they usually do the "morally right" thing. the greatest number of people are doing what is right for the greatest number of people. There is a reason why something is called the "right" thing to do, there is a benefit to it. these benefits have added up. Sure the natural resources are great, but any of the OPEC nations can afford all the resources they want.
I also think that we are great because, as Bill Murray said, "we are a mutts" we have the most diverse population on the planet and since, in my opinion, people are mostly good we get what is good about each different culture and all that adds up as well.

DREAM ON MAN !

 

[russ_watters]

It just so happens, tribdog, that freedom and prosperity are not just compatible, they are symbiotic. We found the right formula. I agree with everything you said.

 

[Artman]

I've always thought that the reason America is so powerful is because we have so many freedoms. When people are free to do what they want, they usually do the "morally right" thing. the greatest number of people are doing what is right for the greatest number of people. There is a reason why something is called the "right" thing to do, there is a benefit to it. these benefits have added up. Sure the natural resources are great, but any of the OPEC nations can afford all the resources they want.
I also think that we are great because, as Bill Murray said, "we are a mutts" we have the most diverse population on the planet and since, in my opinion, people are mostly good we get what is good about each different culture and all that adds up as well.

Good post Tribdog.

 

[franznietzsche]

Is this CAPITALISM and not DEMOCRACY of which franznietzche is speaking?

No its not. That would make no sense.