How did LIGO estimate the distance of the black holes?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around how the LIGO collaboration estimates the distance and masses of black holes from gravitational wave signals. Participants explore the methods used for these estimations, including the relationship between frequency, amplitude, and the underlying physics principles, while also expressing curiosity about the specific formulas and techniques involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how LIGO can estimate the masses and distances of black holes from the observed signals, suggesting that different configurations could produce similar signals.
  • Another participant explains that the masses are inferred from the frequency of the gravitational wave and its changes, while the distance is inferred from the amplitude.
  • A reference to a 2014 paper by C. Messenger et al. is provided, although its applicability to black holes is questioned.
  • There is a request for the specific formula used to calculate distance, with a participant mentioning their limited background in physics.
  • A link to a LIGO document is shared, discussing the use of numerical simulations and Newton's laws in determining black hole separation and mass calculations, specifically mentioning the "chirp mass."
  • One participant elaborates on Kepler's law and its potential use in calculating the effective separation of black holes, detailing the relationship between orbital period, gravitational constant, total mass, and separation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the specific techniques and formulas used by LIGO, with some expressing uncertainty about the applicability of certain laws and methods to black holes.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various assumptions and dependencies on specific formulas, such as Kepler's law and the concept of chirp mass, without resolving the details of their application to the black hole observations.

JK423
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As we all know, the LIGO collaboration published a paper recently on the first direct observation of a binary merging black hole system. From the observed signal, they were able to infer the black holes' masses and their distance from Earth.

However, the fact that they can estimate masses and distance is completely non-intuitive to me. To my mind, the same signal could have been produced by two black holes that are much closer to us but have smaller masses.
What is it that singles out the particular black hole configuration they reported? Does anyone have any intuition on that?
 
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The masses are inferred from the frequency of the wave and how it changes, the distance is inferred from the amplitude.
 
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That makes sense! Thanks a lot
 
Orodruin said:
The masses are inferred from the frequency of the wave and how it changes, the distance is inferred from the amplitude.
Do you know the specific formula they were using to count the distance. I am in high school and the physics course that i am having has only given me the basic equation of Waves, which is velocity = Hz x wavelength.
 
See https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0122/P150914/014/LIGO-P150914_Detection_of_GW150914.pdf

I'm not sure if they used a numerical simulation to get the "Keplerian effective black hole separation" or whether they just deduced that from the frequency of the chirp using Newton's laws. It sounds like it might be the later, but it wasn't too clear to me from reading the paper. There is a formula in the paper for the mass calculation of the pair, though. What's calculated is called the "chirp mass".
 
Let me expand my previous response in a bit more detail. Kepler's law is:

$$T^2 = \frac{4 \pi^2}{GM} a^3$$

where T is the orbital period, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass (for a two body Newtonian system, the total mass) and a is the separation. So basically I'm assuming that when they calculate the ""Keplerian effective black hole separation", they are using Kepler's law to do it, just from the name they used. To calculate a, they would need T and M. The former they can get from 1/f, f being the frequency of the chirp, and they can estimate M from ##\mathscr{M}##, the chirp mass. I should add that ##\mathscr{M}## is new to me, but they do give an explanation and a literature reference in the paper describing it's calculation.
 
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pervect said:
Let me expand my previous response in a bit more detail. Kepler's law is:

$$T^2 = \frac{4 \pi^2}{GM} a^3$$

where T is the orbital period, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass (for a two body Newtonian system, the total mass) and a is the separation. So basically I'm assuming that when they calculate the ""Keplerian effective black hole separation", they are using Kepler's law to do it, just from the name they used. To calculate a, they would need T and M. The former they can get from 1/f, f being the frequency of the chirp, and they can estimate M from ##\mathscr{M}##, the chirp mass. I should add that ##\mathscr{M}## is new to me, but they do give an explanation and a literature reference in the paper describing it's calculation.
Thank you!
 

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