Inverse Square Law for Black Holes

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the inverse square law in the context of black holes and gravitational calculations. Participants explore whether the distance used in gravitational force calculations should be measured to the center of mass or the event horizon of a black hole, and how these considerations fit within Newtonian physics versus General Relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that a black hole can be treated as a mass like any other when using Newtonian approximations, as long as the distances involved are large enough.
  • Others argue that in General Relativity (GR), gravity is not a force and the inverse square law does not apply, emphasizing the need to compute spacetime geometry instead.
  • There is contention regarding the concept of a center of mass for black holes, with some stating it does not exist and others suggesting that distances can be approximated using the areal radius.
  • Participants discuss the limitations of using Newtonian physics for black holes, particularly when they are in close proximity or moving at relativistic speeds.
  • Some contributions highlight that the Schwarzschild radius complicates the notion of distance, and that attempting to subtract this from other distances is not meaningful.
  • The areal radius is defined and discussed, with participants clarifying its calculation and its implications in non-Euclidean space.
  • Questions arise about measuring distances between particles near a black hole, with suggestions that geodesics may be used but that defining a unique distance is problematic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the applicability of Newtonian physics to black holes and the interpretation of distances in this context. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on how to approach gravitational calculations involving black holes.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the unclear definitions of distance in the context of black holes, the dependence on the chosen approximation (Newtonian vs. GR), and the unresolved nature of distances within the Schwarzschild radius.

  • #31
dsaun777 said:
When you are calculating the gravitational force between two masses and one of them is a black hole, do you still use the distance to the center of mass as you would in Newtonian gravity to find the force? Or is the distance measured only to the event horizon? Is the inverse square law modified when working with black holes?

What you do in GR rather than calculate the force at some distance d is to calculate the proper acceleration of a static observer at some particular space-time coordinates. Then to get the equivalent of a "force" holding the object in place, you mutiply this proper acceleration of the static observer by the mass of the test particle. The mass of the test particle is assumed to be small, so that it doesn't affect the overall space-time geometry.

To carry out the calculation you need to specify exactly what coordinates you are using,. Typically one would uses the Schwarzschild coordinates associated with the Schwarzschild metric. On occasion, though, one might want to use isotropic coordiantes associated with a different line element.

If we assume the use of Schwarzschild coordiantes, and let the radial coordinate of the test mass be "r", the proper acceleration of the test particle is:

$$ \frac{GM}{r^2 \sqrt{1-\frac{2GM}{r c^2}}}$$

This is mentioned somewhere in Wald, I used an old PF post of mine, https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...rcular-orbits-in-symmetric-spacetimes.686147/

Note that 2GM / c^2 is just r_s, r_s being the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole. So we can re-write this as:

$$ \frac{GM}{r^2 \sqrt{1-\frac{r_s}{r}}}$$

Thus we see that it would require an infinite proper acceleration, and hence an infinite force, at r=r_s. Note also that this is the force as measured by a local scale co-located with the test mass.
 
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  • #33
After moderator review, the thread will remain closed. The substantive question in the OP has been answered.
 

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