How Do Massless Photons Influence Atomic Repulsion in Quantum Electrodynamics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the role of massless photons in atomic repulsion within the framework of quantum electrodynamics (QED). Participants explore the mechanisms of repulsion between atoms, particularly in the context of water vapor, and the nature of virtual particles and fields in this process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how massless photons contribute to the repulsion between atoms, specifically in a swarm of water vapor particles.
  • Another participant provides a link to a resource on virtual particles, indicating a search for deeper understanding.
  • A follow-up post seeks clarification on whether the photon wavefunctions responsible for repulsion are emitted by the electron wavefunctions of the repelling H2O atoms or if they are pre-existing in the field.
  • One participant argues that virtual particles may be mathematical constructs rather than real entities, suggesting that the fields themselves are responsible for the forces of repulsion and attraction.
  • This participant further elaborates that specific fluctuations in the fields, rather than the fields as a whole, are what facilitate the repelling process, raising the question of how to visualize this phenomenon.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of virtual particles and their role in atomic interactions, with no consensus reached on whether virtual particles are real or merely mathematical tools. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact mechanisms of repulsion and the role of photon wavefunctions.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding assumptions about the nature of virtual particles and the definitions of fields and wavefunctions. The exact mathematical steps and relationships between these concepts are not fully explored.

morg
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Hi, I am green to QED.

I could not find any more detailed answer about more exact description of atoms' repel process, both on the forum and the internet. Let's say we have a swarm of water steam particles, hitting each other. Some will join and stay together to form larger droplets, but some will bounce off by their atoms' repulsion force.

How the process of bounce works: How exactly maseless photons involved in the electromagnetic force cause this bounce?

Thanks
 
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qsa said:

thank you very much... After reading this very helpful text, I still don't understand some basic ideas. In example of water steam that I mentioned before:

Are photon wavefunctions (that are responsible for repulsion forces) emitted by electron wavefunction of the repelling H2O atoms? Or these force carrying photons wavefunctions are already "in the field" emitted before by any other sources?
 
Hold on. Virtual particles are, arguably, simply mathematical constructs used to help visualize the math behind quantum mechanics. I THINK it is just as accurate to say that the fields themselves are doing the repelling and attracting and that the virtual particles are simply not real.
 
Drakkith said:
Hold on. Virtual particles are, arguably, simply mathematical constructs used to help visualize the math behind quantum mechanics. I THINK it is just as accurate to say that the fields themselves are doing the repelling and attracting and that the virtual particles are simply not real.

Of course I understand that the idea of virtual particles are virtual behind it, but actually not the fields themselves do the job, but very specific field fluctuations do the job.

I am aiming at visualization of the repelling process. Should I show photon field as a waves propagating in a particular way?
 

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