How do you find the generator corresponding to a parameter of a Lie group?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of generators corresponding to parameters of Lie groups, specifically in the context of transformations such as rotations and Lorentz transformations. Participants explore the mathematical formulation of these generators and the implications of using infinitesimal transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references Ryder's definition of the generator for a Lie group transformation and questions the transition from Lorentz transformations to the generator form.
  • Another participant clarifies that the generator applies to infinitesimal transformations and provides an example using rotations, suggesting that for infinitesimal transformations, the parameter θ can be treated as small.
  • A participant expresses confusion about how to derive the infinitesimal transformation for rotations and requests clarification on the calculations involved.
  • Another participant suggests using Taylor expansions for sine and cosine functions to derive the infinitesimal transformations, indicating that this method can also be applied to Lorentz transformations.
  • A later reply discusses the choice of parameters in Lie groups and emphasizes the convenience of using parameters that are additive for Abelian one-parameter subgroups, providing a detailed example involving the rotation group SO(3) and its generators.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the application of infinitesimal transformations and the use of Taylor expansions, but there is some disagreement regarding the specific calculations and interpretations of the transformations involved, particularly in the context of rotations and Lorentz transformations.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the choice of parameters and the implications of using γ in Lorentz transformations, indicating that assumptions about the infinitesimal nature of velocity may affect the results. The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps and varying interpretations of the transformation processes.

Elwin.Martin
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Alright, so I was reading Ryder and he defines the generator corresponding to [itex]a^{\alpha}[/itex] as the following

[itex]X_{\alpha}[/itex]=[itex]\frac{\partial x'^{\mu}}{\partial a^{\alpha}}[/itex][itex]\frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\mu}}[/itex] ([itex]\alpha =1,...r[/itex]) for r-parameter group of transformations

Now this makes sense for
[itex]a^{\alpha}[/itex]=θ and we get Rotation...but he then says he applies it to "pure" Lorentz transformations:
x'=γ(x+vt)
y'=y
z'=z
t'=γ(t+vx)
γ=(1-v2)-1/2

and I'm not even sure what parameter he's going after here ._. I feel really dumb asking, but what does he do to get from there to here:
Kx=i[itex]\left(t\frac{\partial}{\partial x}+x\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\right)[/itex]

It feels like he loses a factor of γ somewhere or something, too.

Thanks for any and all help, this has been bothering me for a while.
 
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The generator applies to infinitesimal transformations. For example a rotation is

x' = x cos θ + y sin θ
y' = y cos θ - x sin θ

but you don't use the full form, you let θ be infinitesimal and write

x' = x + θ y
y' = y - θ x


Likewise for a Lorentz transformation you use the infinitesimal form, in which γ ≈ 1.
 
Bill_K said:
The generator applies to infinitesimal transformations. For example a rotation is

x' = x cos θ + y sin θ
y' = y cos θ - x sin θ

but you don't use the full form, you let θ be infinitesimal and write

x' = x + θ y
y' = y - θ x


Likewise for a Lorentz transformation you use the infinitesimal form, in which γ ≈ 1.

How is that infinitesimal? I understand what's done with rotation, but γ ≈ 1...wait the velocity is infinitesimal...and hence our parameter? So, for K_x we'd have say...
x'=x+vt
y'=y
z'=z
t'=t+vx
and then when we take partial of say, the 0 (t') component we'd get x[itex]\frac{\partial}{\partial t}[/itex] :D

I think I get what's going on now. . .

This is fantastic, thank you.
 
Bill_K said:
The generator applies to infinitesimal transformations. For example a rotation is

x' = x cos θ + y sin θ
y' = y cos θ - x sin θ

but you don't use the full form, you let θ be infinitesimal and write

x' = x + θ y
y' = y - θ x

I don't understand how you get this. What would be the infinitesimal transformation on the rotation in this case?

When I do the calculation, when I expand the rotation matrix
cos θ -sinθ
sin θ cosθ

I get
x' = x cos θ + y sin θ = x-ydθ
y' = y cos θ - x sin θ = xθ +y
Can you show me the calculation that you used?
Also I'm having a hard time in finding the transformation of
x' = x cos θ + y sin θ
y' = y cos θ - x sin θ
when θ is infinitesimal
 
Last edited:
hansbahia said:
Also I'm having a hard time in finding the transformation of
x' = x cos θ + y sin θ
y' = y cos θ - x sin θ
when θ is infinitesimal

Just use the Taylor expansion sin x =x +O(x^3) and cos x=1+O(x^2).
In case of the Lorenz trafos expand in v: gamma=1+O(v^2)
 
You simply use the Taylor expansion wrt. the parameter of the Lie group. How to choose this parameter is in principle not so important since a Lie group is a manifold, where you can choose any parameter you like, but it's very convenient to choose parameters, which are additive for the Abelian one-parameter subgroups.

For rotations, the natural one-parameter subgroups are given by the rotations around a fixed axis, and you can parametrize any rotation by the direction of its axis (two parameters for the corresponding normalized vector) and the rotation angle around this axis.

In your example you consider the fundamental representation of the rotation group SO(3) and look at the rotations around the three axis,

[tex]\vec{x}'=D_3(\varphi) \vec{x}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> \cos \varphi & \sin \varphi & 0 \\<br /> -\sin \varphi & \cos \varphi &0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 1<br /> \end{pmatrix}.[/tex]

You go over from the Lie group to the corresponding Lie algebra by expanding this law to first order around the group identity, which is here chosen in the usual way to correspond to [itex]\varphi=0[/itex]. Then you use Taylor's series for the trigonometrix functions up to first order,

[tex]\cos \varphi=1+\mathcal{O}(\varphi^2), \quad \sin \varphi=\varphi + \mathcal{O}(\varphi^3).[/tex]

This you plug into the equation above to find

[tex]\vec{x}'=\vec{x}+\mathrm{i} J_z \varphi \vec{x}+\mathcal{O}(\varphi^2)=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 1 & \varphi & 0 \\<br /> -\varphi & 1 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 0 <br /> \end{pmatrix}+\mathcal{O}(\varphi^2).[/tex]

This gives you

[tex]J_z=-\mathrm{i} \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 & 1 & 0 \\<br /> -1 & 0 & 0\\<br /> 0 & 0 & 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}.[/tex]
 

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