How does Ethyl isopropyl ketone affect graphene sheets?

[Doctorwhodidit]

Hi my name is Chris and I was wondering how dose Ethyl isopropyl ketone effect graphene's conductive properties? graphene is a 2D material made from carbon atoms arranged in a hexagonal pattern ( A honeycomb crystal lattice) I was reading the graphene hand book and it said that graphene sheets can absorb molecules and or their atoms witch can change the conductive properties of the graphene sheet. Would Ethyl isopropyl ketone effect the conductive properties in anyway were it would decreases the electron mobility? I'm trying to keep the conductive properties the same when I receive it from the manufacture witch is higher than copper while conducting experiments with it in a tank of Ethyl isopropyl ketone. Please if you have any insight on my dilemma It could really help me. Thank you for your time. Chris

 

[TeethWhitener]

The ketone will likely change the FET properties of graphene, but I doubt you’ll be able to detect it without specialized equipment.

 

[Doctorwhodidit]

The ketone will likely change the FET properties of graphene, but I doubt you’ll be able to detect it without specialized equipment.

Hi, I wanted to say thank you for the insight on the effects of Ethyl isopropyl ketone on graphene. I'm a newbie when it comes to the experiments I'm trying to do. Please bear with me if I sound a little or a lot out of my area lol. I’m removing the substrate from the graphene sheet and having graphene submerged in a tank of Ethyl isopropyl ketone known as Novec 1230 non-conductive liquid. I’ll be using electromagnets to induce a current in the graphene while it’s submerged in the tank of Novec 1230. The only item touching the graphene well be the electronic leads that well also act as a support holding graphene in place in the tank of Novec 1230. I'm thinking the Novec 1230 well isolate any parasitic leakage that can happen with the electrons as if the graphene is attached to a substrate. Without a substrate the Novec 1230 should act like a bearer and or funnel making the electrons pass through the only path available, path of least resistance, to the electronic leads holding the graphene in place. I hoping by doing this it well allow the graphene’s conductive properties that make it a better conductor then copper well stay in tacked. If you can help me think why this wouldn't work please feel free to let me know in laymen terms before I spend to much on the idea lol. Thank you for your time Chris.

 

[TeethWhitener]

If it's a single layer of graphene and you're removing the support, it won't survive for long.

 

[Doctorwhodidit]

If it's a single layer of graphene and you're removing the support, it won't survive for long.

Hi, I'll be using a bilayer graphene that is still more conductive than copper. the graphene bilayer is also used as a substrate for other electronics so I'm hoping this should hold up? The bilayer graphene stills has zero-bandgap and is being he-ion beam etched. The graphene hand book say this bilayer is being used as a wafer substrate for electronics.

 

[TeethWhitener]

It's two atoms thick. It will break if you try to manipulate it.

 

[Doctorwhodidit]

It's two atoms thick. It will break if you try to manipulate it.

Yeah that is one of the things I was worried about. after chemical etching of the copper substrate and the graphene is setting alone in deionized water I would slowly adjust the % water to Novec 1230 and then have the electronic leads attached to the graphene keeping the electronics with the graphene submerged in the Novec 1230. The graphene well have had he-ion beam etched slits/holes in it witch well allow the graphene to pop onto the leads. I've followed steps through multi experiments by others that allowed me to come up with this idea. In principle the handling of the graphene should work BUT like you said ill still need to be very carful. In the graphene hand book says Sony and others are using bilayer graphene as a wafer substrate to hold electronics together without any other martials acting as support for the graphene since graphene is brittle yet stretchable . So I'm hoping by following some of there methods well help me in this experiment lol plus I'm having the experiments done in a lab that can handle it with more care then I could ever do at my house lol I'm new in this field and need to do all the foot work on paper then if its looks good the experiment might be performed by others. I really appreciate any and all incites negative or positive please feel free to correct me if you see anything that can be a problem two heads are better then 1 lol I'm hopping that the Novec 1230 well allow the electrons to take path of least resistance striate to the leads without anything els effecting them.

 

[TeethWhitener]

I would slowly adjust the % water to Novec 1230

This won't work if they're not miscible. Even if they are, adding one liquid to another causes changes in surface tension which can lead to unwanted forces jostling a graphene layer back and forth.

I've done a lot of work on these exact types of systems. It's challenging simply keeping the graphene from collapsing on its own. It gets exponentially harder once you try to manipulate it without a support. What is the drawback of transferring the sheet onto a support with regions where it's freestanding (troughs, etc.)?

 

[TeethWhitener]

One further thing. You keep saying you're going to have other people do these experiments for you. Presumably these will be trained scientists who work in the field. Do they work for you already? If so, why don't you ask them for their ideas? If not, what makes you think they'll be willing to take on a project spearheaded by someone with absolutely no experience in the field?

 

[Doctorwhodidit]

One further thing. You keep saying you're going to have other people do these experiments for you. Presumably these will be trained scientists who work in the field. Do they work for you already? If so, why don't you ask them for their ideas? If not, what makes you think they'll be willing to take on a project spearheaded by someone with absolutely no experience in the field?

Good morning. I'll try to explain without taking up to much time lol. I have family members that cover all sorts of engineering degrees even in Nano electrical engineering in the hundreds thousandth of an inch and are interested an my idea, but still can't help me by giving me any government or privet sector trade secrets that can help me. all they can say is its due able but not how, which so sucks lol but I have got their attention in regards to graphene. So far so good in that department yeah me lol. I was an avionics technician in the military so I have a little knowledge in the electrical field. With knowledge of abilities that some things are possible to do with graphene but still limited I'm trying to get My idea ready to be shown and if they say they think that from step 1 through 10 is due able, they'll ask for support to try my idea. they just know a lot of people an a lot of fields of engineering. Graphene is one item to hit the market that Nano development is really looking into. The handling part of graphene can be overcome in a controlled laboratory environment and what my idea is doing doesn't call for it to be moved around i.e. put into phones and carried this is just a single step in testing a method to reduce or eliminate parasitic leakage, the electronics' attached to the graphene is in a slim depth tank with the electronic leads facing upwards and the graphene floating on top barely touching the leads. the he-ion beam etching slits/ holes into the graphene witch allows the graphene to pop onto the custom shape lead tips. this will hold the graphene in place acting as a substrate while allowing the entire electronics to be submerged in the Novec 1230. The electromagnet well induce current in the graphene further away and then send that current striate to the electronics powering them, I know a lot of info is lacking, sorry I can't go to much into details. The graphene sheet is etched in a pattern were the inductance is further away from the electronics so the electromagnetic fields won't effect the electronics. I'm dealing in Micro to Nano measurements witch in itself is challenging for me lol I can't say I know everything lol. My family is the type to watch and only help if its needed but knows if its just the matter of doing research then I'm on my own. I just need to know how the Novec 1230 well effect the electron mobility because I don't know the first thing about chemistry and can't think of anyone who dose. I hope this has helped in understanding my idea a little bit more, Handling of the graphene isn't the problem its the Novec 1230 effects on the graphene electron mobility. Novec shows it doesn't effect coppers electron mobility but since the graphene hand book says the graphene sheet can absorb other molecules and or their atoms is what's throwing me for a loop. Thank you for your time, Chris.

 

[TeethWhitener]

The handling part of graphene can be overcome in a controlled laboratory environment

Handling of the graphene isn't the problem

I understand that you think this, but I'm telling you (for at least the 4th time) it will be much more of a problem than you think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it'll be your main problem. I know because I've been working on graphene transfer (supported and unsupported) for several years now.

You've also ignored my other questions: why not measure mobility with semi-supported graphene over a substrate with troughs? Have you tried simply immersing graphene on any substrate in Novec? Does that change mobility? When you etch the copper growth substrate, how are you going to get rid of the etchant? Won't that require handling the unsupported graphene? How are you going to know that some of the etchant (or residual copper ions) isn't sticking around and affecting your mobility (etchant is usually either APS or FeCl3)? Won't that require an elemental analysis (and thus handling the unsupported graphene)? What happens when you dilute water with Novec? If they're miscible, do you have a way to mitigate the Marangoni-like convection at the liquid surface? If they're not miscible (which I strongly suspect they're not) then you'll have two phases: water at the top and heavier fluorocarbon at the bottom. How will you remove the water then? How will you make a good electrical contact with the graphene? You keep using the phrase "pop onto the leads." This sounds like handling the unsupported graphene. If there's any popping (or any fast motion whatsoever), the graphene's going to crack or fold onto itself.

I don't want to discourage you from doing science along these lines, but 1) this is a far more difficult project than you're making it out to be, 2) you seem to be ignoring what the difficult part is, even when an expert with several years' experience is telling you what it is, and 3) you don't seem to have considered vastly simpler experiments which would inform you whether it was even remotely worthwhile to pursue the more difficult experiments. It's also unclear what problem you're trying to solve with this type of measurement. Are you simply trying to observe the effect of Novec on electron mobility? This can be done on a substrate with troughs far more easily. You say you want to use this setup to eliminate parasitic leakage (I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this): have you observed parasitic leakage in graphene supported on an insulating substrate (like SiOx or polyethylene)? Is it a big enough problem to warrant such a complicated solution? Have you searched the literature to see if someone has addressed the issues you'd like to solve?

At any rate, I would suggest that if you're going to play with this, you at least do two things: 1) clarify exactly what it is that you want to learn about the system, and 2) start with a much simpler system to determine if you need to go more complicated. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Doctorwhodidit]

I understand that you think this, but I'm telling you (for at least the 4th time) it will be much more of a problem than you think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it'll be your main problem. I know because I've been working on graphene transfer (supported and unsupported) for several years now.

You've also ignored my other questions: why not measure mobility with semi-supported graphene over a substrate with troughs? Have you tried simply immersing graphene on any substrate in Novec? Does that change mobility? When you etch the copper growth substrate, how are you going to get rid of the etchant? Won't that require handling the unsupported graphene? How are you going to know that some of the etchant (or residual copper ions) isn't sticking around and affecting your mobility (etchant is usually either APS or FeCl3)? Won't that require an elemental analysis (and thus handling the unsupported graphene)? What happens when you dilute water with Novec? If they're miscible, do you have a way to mitigate the Marangoni-like convection at the liquid surface? If they're not miscible (which I strongly suspect they're not) then you'll have two phases: water at the top and heavier fluorocarbon at the bottom. How will you remove the water then? How will you make a good electrical contact with the graphene? You keep using the phrase "pop onto the leads." This sounds like handling the unsupported graphene. If there's any popping (or any fast motion whatsoever), the graphene's going to crack or fold onto itself.

I don't want to discourage you from doing science along these lines, but 1) this is a far more difficult project than you're making it out to be, 2) you seem to be ignoring what the difficult part is, even when an expert with several years' experience is telling you what it is, and 3) you don't seem to have considered vastly simpler experiments which would inform you whether it was even remotely worthwhile to pursue the more difficult experiments. It's also unclear what problem you're trying to solve with this type of measurement. Are you simply trying to observe the effect of Novec on electron mobility? This can be done on a substrate with troughs far more easily. You say you want to use this setup to eliminate parasitic leakage (I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this): have you observed parasitic leakage in graphene supported on an insulating substrate (like SiOx or polyethylene)? Is it a big enough problem to warrant such a complicated solution? Have you searched the literature to see if someone has addressed the issues you'd like to solve?

At any rate, I would suggest that if you're going to play with this, you at least do two things: 1) clarify exactly what it is that you want to learn about the system, and 2) start with a much simpler system to determine if you need to go more complicated. I wish you the best of luck.

Good after noon, My apologies if I came off sounding as if your wrong. When I Said its due able I just mint what steps I have come up with not that Its all due able. I just wanted to say thank you for your insight and its been helping to try to figure out a way to over come the obstacles that I come across now and in the future. I hope you have a very marry Christmas and a happy New Year. Chris.