How does one construct the action which gives the equation of motion?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the construction of action principles in theoretical physics, particularly in the context of deriving equations of motion. Participants explore the methodology behind formulating actions, the role of symmetries, and the implications of specific theories such as Brans-Dicke gravity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to construct a suitable action that leads to the correct equations of motion, questioning the necessity of knowing the equations beforehand.
  • Another participant suggests that actions are often guessed, with choices influenced by the symmetries desired in the equations of motion, emphasizing that symmetries of the action must align with those of the equations.
  • A participant notes that the weak field limit of gravity restricts the possible actions, mentioning Brans-Dicke theory as a potential example that could be expressed in action form, though they acknowledge uncertainty due to lack of evidence for its scalar field component.
  • One participant cites a specific action for Brans-Dicke theory from Wikipedia, while also expressing skepticism about its presence in standard literature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the construction of actions, with differing views on the necessity of prior knowledge of equations of motion and the implications of symmetries. The discussion reflects multiple competing perspectives on the topic.

Contextual Notes

There are assumptions regarding the applicability of action principles and the relationship between symmetries of actions and equations of motion that remain unresolved. The discussion also highlights the dependence on experimental verification for the validity of proposed actions.

arroy_0205
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
I do not understand how people construct a suitable action which after variation will give the correct equation of motion. For example, the Einstein Hilbert action: S=integration[R d^4x] gives the equation of motion when varied with respect to [g_mu nu]. But no book I had read so far tells me how to construct this action. Can anybody help me with this?
Second, if someone says that the action is constructed so that after variation it must give the equation of motion then why do I need to use this technique in the first place where first I have to know the equation of motion and then construct the action, then vary it and rederive the equation of motion which I already had?
Third, how do I know that an action is the only action which will give the correct equation of motion?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Actions are guessed. The possible choices are restricted by the symmetries you want your action to obey which automatically become symmetries of the equations of motion. It's much easier to impose symmetries (like Lorentz invariance) on the Lagrangian (a scalar function) than directly on the equations of motion. Only experiment is the final verification of your chosen action.

Of course the usual assumption is that your system is describable by action which doesn't have to be the case 100% of the time. Another assumption is that if your equations obey certain symmetry, your action has to obey it too but that is not true in general. It's true in the reverse direction - a symmetry of the action automatically becomes a symmetry of the equations of motion.
 
Last edited:
The fact that gravity acts like Newtonian gravity in the weak field limit also vastly limits the number of possible actions.

I would think that Brans-Dicke gravity theories, for instance, could also be expressed in action form. (I haven't seen one written down, though, so I'm not positive). However, Brans-Dicke theory can be thought of as GR + an extra scalar field, and experimental evidence hasn't found any evidence of such a scalar field - i.e. Brans-Dicke has some adjustable parameters, and when the parameters of Brans-Dicke are adjusted to match experiment, it makes the same predictions that GR does. This doesn't rule out a scalar field, but basically means that it must be so small as to not have any known detectable effects.
 
According to Wikipedia, Brans-Dicke theory does have an action:

[tex]S=\frac{1}{16\pi}\int d^4x\sqrt{-g} \; \left(\phi R - \omega\frac{\partial_a\phi\partial^a\phi}{\phi} + \mathcal{L}_\mathrm{M}\right)[/tex]

Although, I can't say I've seen it in a book. So I hope the appropriate pinch of salt is taken too.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
966
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 50 ·
2
Replies
50
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K