How Does Process B Work If PV Is Constant and Internal Energy Changes?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving a gas in a piston-cylinder assembly undergoing two processes, A and B, between specified end states. The original poster expresses confusion about the nature of process B, which is described by a constant pressure-volume relationship (PV = constant), and its implications on internal energy changes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to reconcile the concept of PV = constant with their understanding of isothermal processes, questioning how internal energy can change under these conditions. They also seek clarification on the shape of the PV diagram for process B, comparing it to a logarithmic curve.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the original poster's confusion, with some questioning the assumptions made about the graph's shape and the nature of the gas involved. There is no clear consensus, but multiple interpretations of the PV relationship and its graphical representation are being explored.

Contextual Notes

There is uncertainty regarding the ideal gas assumption, as one participant suggests that the discrepancy in internal energy might indicate that the gas is not behaving ideally. The original poster also notes a potential misunderstanding of the graph's representation.

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Homework Statement


A gas contained in a piston-cylinder assembly undergoes two processes, A and B, between the same end states, 1 and 2.
State 1: P1 = 1 bar, V1 = 1 m3, U1 = 400 kJ
State 2: P2 = 10 bar, V1 = 0.1 m3, U1 = 450 kJ
Process A: Constant-volume process from state 1 to a pressure of 10 bar, followed by a onstant-pressure process to state 2.
Process B: Process from 1 to 2 during which the pressure volume relation is PV = constant.
Kinetic and potential effects can be ignored.

Homework Equations


U = Q - W
PV = constant

The Attempt at a Solution


For this problem, I have trouble grasping the concepts. In a prior physics class I remember learning that PV = constant is representative of an isothermal process. This means that there is no change in temperature. No change in temperature also means that there is no change in internal energy. How then is process B possible? I've done all the math and I've gotten the right values, but I don't understand the logic. I also don't understand how to draw a PV diagram for such a process. My first guess was just a curve similar to y = ln(x), but apparently the solutions show a curve that looks like a quarter ellipse. I imagine this has something to do with the first predicament.
Here is the textbook's answer for the PV diagrams. Process A is simple, I understand that, but why does process B look like a quarter ellipse instead of a y = ln(x) curve?
fq8GuOa.png
 
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Why do you think it should be y=ln(x)? The chart is linear-linear, not log-linear.
But I disagree with the curve shown also. Look at the point (accidentally) marked B. The PV there is about 6.
 
Ah, I'm sorry, I meant y = 1/x, not y = ln(x).
 
bartersnarter said:
Ah, I'm sorry, I meant y = 1/x, not y = ln(x).
Yes, I'd agree with that. So the graph is wrong, and the 450kJ is a puzzle. Maybe it's not to be considered an ideal gas, though I've no idea whether such a discrepancy is realistic.
 

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