How effective can QM be to understand the mind and/or consciousness?

[SEYED2001]

I am very interested in the philosophy and science of the mind, as well as consciousness in neuroscience. I am also very interested in QM. Now, I wonder how QM can be potentially connected to my two previous interests on the consciousness and mind. I would also appreciate any reference to articles or chapters on textbooks on these "quantum mind" topics.
Thank you in advance;
Seyed

 

[jambaugh]

I don't think we are yet at a position where it is meaningful to invoke quantum mechanics directly in terms of understanding how the mind works, Roger Penrose notwithstanding. For one we cannot, for both moral and practical reasons make sharp measurements of the brain. However...

I believe we can take a lesson from the distinct way the science of natural phenomena is described in quantum mechanics (descriptions of actions) vs classical mechanics (descriptions of objective states). I recall, over coffee, discussing this very subject with a fellow graduate student when studying for my doctorate.

The key is to transition to a praxic/action based language as is done in QM while keeping the rigor an operational meaning, again as was done in QM. This as opposed to working with ontological descriptions and objective models, especially those including a presumption of un-observable objective states. The very phrase "state of mind" is a habit of this mechanistic way of viewing the functioning brain. I think this has been done to some extent as with the transition from Freudian to Jungian schools of psychoanalysis but I am too inexpert to render an opinion as to the level of rigor.

You have much of the same issues in studying behavior and studying quanta: The inescapable fact that all observations are two-way interactions; that the order in which observations are made will change results; the inescapable indeterministic nature of the systems involved, these all appear in both disciplines.

 

[SEYED2001]

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Nugatory]

Now, I wonder how QM can be potentially connected to my two previous interests on the consciousness and mind. I would also appreciate any reference to articles or chapters on textbooks on these "quantum mind" topics.

How much reading in this area have you already done? There's been a fair amount of speculation on consciousness as quantum mechanical phenomenon over the years. At a layperson level there's Roger Penrose's "The Emperor's New Mind", and googling for "Orchestrated Objective Reduction" will bring up many more sophisticated references. You might also be interested in Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained" - the title overpromises, but it is still a good counterpoint arguing that the mechanism of consciusness need not be non-deterministic.

The entire topic is of course, highly speculative.

 

[SEYED2001]

How much reading in this area have you already done? There's been a fair amount of speculation on consciousness as quantum mechanical phenomenon over the years. At a layperson level there's Roger Penrose's "The Emperor's New Mind", and googling for "Orchestrated Objective Reduction" will bring up many more sophisticated references. You might also be interested in Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained" - the title overpromises, but it is still a good counterpoint arguing that the mechanism of consciusness need not be non-deterministic.

The entire topic is of course, highly speculative.

Thank you sir. I haven't started to read QM yet. I would probably see the Daniel Dennett's argument between the consciousness and determinism. That should be very interesting! Thank you once again.

 

[Dale]

Given how far the brain is from the quantum scale I think that QM consciousness speculation is silly. Even a single neuron is classical-sized

 

[hilbert2]

You have much of the same issues in studying behavior and studying quanta: The inescapable fact that all observations are two-way interactions; that the order in which observations are made will change results; the inescapable indeterministic nature of the systems involved, these all appear in both disciplines.

Another apparent similarity in these is that the $10^{11}$ neurons in the human brain have to interact through local interactions, and still they produce a mind that experiences itself as one whole. This problem is somewhat alike to the nonlocality (spooky action at distance) in quantum measurements, but there's no actual evidence linking these things to one another.

 

[Nugatory]

Given how far the brain is from the quantum scale I think that QM consciousness speculation is silly.

I once described Penrose’s book as not merely unconvincing, but “profoundly unconvincing”.

 

[Dale]

the $10^{11}$ neurons in the human brain have to interact through local interactions, and still they produce a mind that experiences itself as one whole. This problem is somewhat alike to the nonlocality (spooky action at distance) in quantum measurements

Locality is not an issue. The time scale of a single action potential is about 1 ms so as long as a brain is smaller than about 300 km nothing relevant is non-local.

 

[StevieTNZ]

You may find this website useful for your studies -- https://kelvinmcqueen.com/

All the best.

 

[jambaugh]

This problem is somewhat alike to the nonlocality (spooky action at distance) in quantum measurements, but there's no actual evidence linking these things to one another.

What Dale said. But also there isn't any nonlocality per se in quantum measurements excepting that a non-locally defined observable (such as momentum) is by definition not locally defined. The locality issues with Bell inequality violation are a red herring. But in any event I believe you are making a category error in comparing the abstract unity of one's self image with a physical locality. I also can conceive of myself as part of "one nation" or "one faith" and that unity has nothing to do with spatial locality.

Body image is a separate matter but that can be arbitrarily spatially extensive as say one imagining remote operated manipulators as "one's hands" while one is using them... no less so when those manipulators are mere (classically) coded states inside a VR computer's graphics ram.

 

[marcusl]

I’m glad there is a respectable line of thought on this topic. When I read the thread title, I immediately thought of physicists Puthoff, Targ and Nobel laureate Brian Josephson, all of whom dabbled (or more like babbled) about QM, consciousness and ESP.

 

[Klystron]

The OP is probably familiar with Existentialism, the philosophy most influenced by new theories in physics of Planck, Einstein, Dirac, et al. Development of existential ideas by Martin Heidegger and later Jean-Paul Sartre, among others, closely paralleled publications on the implications of relativity and quantum theory. Technological and medical advances from WWII required a rigorous philosophical framework to understand the moral implications and effects on human society.

STEM students wishing to explore modern philosophy may find Existential ideas a reasonable fit. Writers such as Martin Buber and Karl Popper certainly influenced science and the philosophy of science including quantum mechanics.

 

[Dale]

I don’t believe that there are any widely accepted theories of the origins of consciousness, particularly not any with experimental support. So until then this topic will have to wait.