How Has the Bible Survived Against All Odds?

[megashawn]

In fact you don't even believe there is a God. You said on page 2 of this thread that "god is imaginary".

I've never said I don't believe a God exists. Infact, many times I've said just that, I do not have enough information to make a decision as to whether or not a god exists.

On the other hand, I believe any god you could possibly want exists in the imagination. So yes, in an imaginary world, there is no question a god could exist.

I find it quite amazing that someone who says the Bible is just another book written by men and also says that God is something created from man's imagination, would then say "Show me where that story is in the Bible".

Hey now, that request was not for my benefit alone. I'm sure any christian believer would love to read that story for themselves. Unfortunately it doesn't exist, as it was something made up to try to help your arguement.

This is not the first time that you have misstated what I have said. I didn't say that our genetic defect causes killing etc... I said that we are inclined to do bad things. We still have free will and great power to choose what we will do. We don't have to give into our impulses.

And this is not the first time you've taken things to seriously, and also skipped the rest of the sentance. Did you happen to notice the nine words after what inspired your comments?

or whatever other sinful activity you can think of

Now just what exactly do you think I mean by that?

It's a fair question I suppose. The Bible does not purport to be a comprehensive record of every single thing that has ever happened. You could fill a library with the history of the universe. Would it help you if God had told you in the Bible why he created dinosaurs? Do you really need to know?

But people who support creationism would have creation science taught in place of real science, and people would never learn about dinosaurs until they were already brainwashed. The bible claims to be an account of creation. It starts at the universe, then earth, sun & moon, then the stars, then plants, then animals, then people.

There is not a man or woman who could be considered sane that would deny dinosaurs existence. To me, the mere fact that there is no mention of these animals at some step in the creation process shows that the biblical creation story is rubbish.

And before you tell me that dinosaurs were included in the lines about creating the beasts, remember that god also told man he'd have dominion over all the beasts. Now, looking at it realistically, who has dominion, a man and a stick, or a raptor?

OK, we won't talk about it

I was joking, I'd love some kind of evidence to support this. Got any?

You see Laser Eyes, as I said earlier, I have no clue about pretty much anything, aside from going to work, paying my bills, riding my bike and playing my games. I don't know if there is some all mighty being pushing the buttons. I have an interest in this stuff because I really would like to see some evidence on the matter, that would perhaps verify the claim of one of the millions of religions (joking again, don't take my number serious and dedicate a paragraph to it).

 

[Laser Eyes]

Radagast, you ceratainly haven't said anything that suggests you have been less than honest at all. The post I think you are complaining about was in response to a post by megashawn. If he or anyone else is offended by what I posted above then I apologise. Looking back at my post above it is not the way I usually deal with things. I think I was in a bad mood at the time and just being argumentative. What I said wasn't meant to question anyone's honesty. I do respect others' beliefs but like everone I could probably be better at it. Like I said, I was just looking for an argument. I think it's possible to be too logical at times.

It's a good point about looking at the arguments from a non-believer's point of view. I really hadn't looked at them like that and it's a little difficult for me to do now. The arguments probably wouldn't have convinced me of anything either when I was an atheist.

I guess I'm still waiting for an answer? Or is Laser Eyes still looking in the bible for that story?

That story is drawn from several different Bible themes and from many scriptures spread throughout the Bible. It would take me some time to prepare a post that properly explained where all the scriptures are and how they relate to the story. It's more time than I have right now so it will have to wait.

 

[megashawn]

The post I think you are complaining about was in response to a post by megashawn.

Ya, didn't you know? You don't have to be nice when replying to me.



j/k of course (I hope [?] )

The arguments probably wouldn't have convinced me of anything either when I was an atheist.

Well, what exactly was it, that finally did convince you?

 

[Tsu]

My post:

quote:
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I guess I'm still waiting for an answer? Or is Laser Eyes still looking in the bible for that story?
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Originally posted by Laser Eyes
That story is drawn from several different Bible themes and from many scriptures spread throughout the Bible. It would take me some time to prepare a post that properly explained where all the scriptures are and how they relate to the story. It's more time than I have right now so it will have to wait.

Thank you, Laser Eyes. That is pretty much the same answer that I got from my friends years ago - I just wanted to make sure that...well, I guess I don't really KNOW what I wanted to make sure of. I'm just as confused by the bible as anyone else, and I'm just trying to learn. Please don't feel like you have to pull all this infor together just for for me - just keep going in this thread. You aren't just dealing with skeptics and total atheists here, you know! :-) Some of us Christians need lots of help with this stuff!

I realized years ago that I'd been sitting on the fence most of my life in regards to religion & Christianity, and it was time to get the heck OFF of the fence! No other conscious decision 'felt' right to me (atheism, eastern religions, Judaism)but I really felt compelled to make up my mind, and then, one day, I had a very moving spiritual experience and I realized that I had just MADE my decision. Now I'm just trying to live it, and understand... why I made the decision I did? (I guess? or something...) I have numerous 'fundamentalist' friends, but I surely didn't have the life-changing spiritual event that turned these people's lives around completely. They have become 'bible literalists' (is this the proper term?) – they take the words of the bible and try to live them literally – live as Jesus would have lived - whereas, I am still the same person, with the same life...I just have a different way of looking at life and the world in general. I believe I've become a much better person through this conscious decision, but I haven’t become a ‘crusader’, trying to force people around to my point of view by telling them, that because they don’t believe like me, THEY ARE GOING TO HELL! I guess that’s the problem that I have with someone trying to convince me so hard of ‘what’ the bible ‘says’. They always try to tell me I’m not a TRUE Christian because I don’t believe that THIS is the correct way to interpret this passage…blah blah blah… But you know what? These very people do not act in a very Christian-like manner towards ‘outsiders’ in their churches. I must say that I have found more ‘Christian’ attitudes outside churches than inside them. Why is that?

(don’t know why I told you all that! sorry...I digress)

Ultimately, you have to admit, the bible is a pretty tough read for anyone! It is said you can find anything in the bible to support almost any action that you choose to take in any given situation. I believe this to be true.

 

[Laser Eyes]

Well, what exactly was it, that finally did convince you?

Well first off let me tell you that I was the king of all atheists. Whenever some religious nut needed putting down I got sent into action. There's nothing worse than a smart ass with brains. If I was passing someone preaching in the street I always went over to them to have some fun and show them how much smarter I was. Or if someone knocked on my door and tried talking about God boy did they ever get it. They couldn't leave fast enough. Here is a typical conversation between me, the King Atheist (KA) and the Religious Nut (RN):

KA: Hi, what's this about?

RN: I'm talking to people about the Bible and Jesus Christ. Did you know that Jesus died for you?

KA: Did I ask him to?

RN: Well Jesus died for all sinners because he loved them.

KA: Look pal, I don't believe there is a God. If there was a God he would have told us that he exists.

RN: God did tell us he exists. He gave us the Bible and that tells us many things about him.

KA: THE BIBLE! That's just a book written by men.

RN: Can I just show you where it says ...

KA: I'm not interested what it says in there. A book doesn't prove a thing.

RN: But the Bible is God's word. The writings are inspired by God himself.

KA: I just told you I don't believe there is a God. If you want me to believe in God then make him appear right now.

RN: It doesn't work like that.

KA: Hey if God wants me to believe in him then why wouldn't he appear? That's all I need, just make him appear RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. If he does that then I'll believe there's a God. If he wants me to believe in him then he'd do it.

RN: God created you and all the world around you. How do you think you got here?

KA: Well I don't know about you but my parents created me.

RN: Did they create the Earth too?

KA: Hey pal, are you trying to be smart with me? Haven't you ever heard of evolution and the Big Bang?

RN: But how did life begin.

KA: With a BIG BANG. I just told you that. What are you deaf?

RN: I probably can't help you but it was nice talking to you.

KA: (walking away) You can't help anyone pal including yourself.

So how did the king of all atheists do an about turn? It was as simple as this. One day I decided to open my mind to the possibility that God exists. That's it. That's all it took. The moment I did that I knew that there was a God. Absolute certainty. Nothing supernatural, nothing spiritual about it. I didn't change my mind based on this argument or that argument. No-one else was involved. All that happened was I was willing to accept the possibility that I might be wrong, just the possibility mind you, nothing more than that. But I completely opened my mind, no holding on to anything that went before. I was willing to believe there was a God and deal with whatever consequences there might be. I think I did it because I realized that I had been believing there was no God based on nothing. I had never proven to myself that there was no God and no-one else had proven it to me. I had adopted atheism out of convenience. It was probably one of the more humble things I've done.

People come to know God in different ways. The usual way is through study of the Bible and pondering on what it says. Eventually people realize that God is there. What happened for me is not the usual way.

 

[Zero]

Sad, how the 'king' has fallen. You were right the first time, and if you had been in a predominantly Hindo, Muslim, or Buddhist country, that is what you would have converted to.

Don't take this the wrong way, but were you in AA, rehab, or prison, or had you suffered a recent trauma?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
So how did the king of all atheists do an about turn? It was as simple as this. One day I decided to open my mind to the possibility that God exists. That's it. That's all it took. The moment I did that I knew that there was a God. Absolute certainty. Nothing supernatural, nothing spiritual about it. I didn't change my mind based on this argument or that argument. No-one else was involved. All that happened was I was willing to accept the possibility that I might be wrong, just the possibility mind you, nothing more than that. But I completely opened my mind, no holding on to anything that went before. I was willing to believe there was a God and deal with whatever consequences there might be. I think I did it because I realized that I had been believing there was no God based on nothing. I had never proven to myself that there was no God and no-one else had proven it to me. I had adopted atheism out of convenience. It was probably one of the more humble things I've done.

That's a very good story, and that's about what it takes too.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Tsunami
Don't ASK me how that got in there twice... I haven't a clue. But I'm quite certain it was operator error, somehow.

If you would like to delete a post, just click on "edit" in the bottom right-hand corner of the post, and when the screen opens up go up to the top and select the delete "box" on the left and click on the delete "button" on the right, and that should take care of it.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
Radagast, you ceratainly haven't said anything that suggests you have been less than honest at all. ...

I appreciate the apology. After I posted I realized you probably were more targetted at a particular person than all who disagreed with you.

It's a good point about looking at the arguments from a non-believer's point of view. I really hadn't looked at them like that and it's a little difficult for me to do now. The arguments probably wouldn't have convinced me of anything either when I was an atheist.

Seeing another's POV is always difficult. When religious folk come to the door, I always invite them into discuss religion. Not to have an argument, but to see what they believe. I hope to always challenge the way I think and make sure I keep my mind open and thinking. Though I don't hide that I don't share their beliefs, I also don't try to make it an issue. I have been quite amazed that most are not the stereotypical, closed minded, religious types, but can see that others can have a valid, but differing point of view.

 

[megashawn]

Well first off let me tell you that I was the king of all atheists.

Seems like rather weak arguements coming from a king of atheists.

I've never shutdown the possibility of a god. I just truly believe that the god of the bible cannot be responsible for this life, with the claims made about him/nature. Then the contradictions, atrocities, etc, make my stomach turn to be honest.

When I say something like, "God should just show himself" it doesn't have to be a physical appearance. If god is so powerfull, and is everywhere, why can't he whisper the same thing in everyones ear?