There is no life after death (and no hell)

  • Thread starter Laser Eyes
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  • #101
death happens when your physical body dies. Does consciousness die as well? Christianity says no....that people are eternal beings, but that if they don't choose for God, they will face eternity without God and the attributes he brings to the world. It will be an eternity of isolation, desperation, bitterness and malice.

mhernan:

Why am I reading before I asnwer you? Because the context of statements matter a lot. Not just the sentences around the one you want, but the chapter, book, and other writings by the same person. So I want to review the context before I answer. I may go look up some of the key words in that passage in Hebrew to see what each of them means the other times they are translated in the OT.

Have a good weekend all
 
  • #102
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dearest PS

don't go looking up anything, think for yourself. now, you proved to yourself that a keyboard and mouse exist. no one told you they were there. (later we will discuss that they aren't really, truely).

FEEL your eternal soul. sense your creative power and determine if you want to be isolated, alone, bitter and desparate. i am alone but i am not bitter, desparate or driven to malice.

the dichotomy is that we are alone, together. god can not save you from being alone. only you can reach out and share your world with others. it is a matter of what you want to believe.

only fear of being alone, bitter, desparate has you believing in a devine, biblical god. do not focus on your fears other than to hold them up and realize that we are in a safe universe and we each have the power to undo our fears. fear of losing heaven is the trump card of religion.

like i said, i like to play poker. the odds of all those references that are approved for your use, being the true word of god are close to zero (infinity to 1). they have been passed down by humans, who you yourself say, are flawed. if they are flawed, how did they act 'perfectly'.

i say again. man is not flawed, he was not born with the original sin of his ancestors. we are all in the process of becoming. please experience truth, don't read it.

actually, you can not prove that i exist. i may be a figment of your subconscious, trying to push you toward another reality. if you're scared, then i might be your subconscious evil twin. i might even be a reincarnated apolstle.

what mhernan was trying to say is that we are all our own personal god. relax, accept and enjoy.

love & peace,
 
  • #103
"This is one of the first things, if not THE first thing, I questioned about religion when I was a child. It did not seem right (and still doesn't) that anything done within a mere 70 year lifetime could deserve such a horrible eternal punishment. The distance/closeness fate I mentioned above seems to make more sense." 1st reply to topic is quoted here.


"I certainly can't accept that there is a loving and just god that
would allow someone to suffer for eternity. Justice implies a
proportionality between crime and punishment, no finite crime
balances against an infinite punishment" someone quoted here from a different thread, possibly laser eyes.

My first doubt of the bible was when I was a child. I had the childrens edition of the bible. It was on the topic of Adam and Eve being created and nudism. It said that Adam and Eve were created nude. They weren't ashamed under the circumstances, they covered themselves with leaves though. It did also state that nudity is a sin in almost any case. This was all said in simpler terms, for children to understand.
What is wrong with nudism? I wear clothes, not because I'm ashamed by my body, but because of the cops, clothing provides protection, and clothing is useful when you're cold. I think the whole reason people started wearing clothing was for protection against their environment. They weren't ashamed of their body. I don't exactly understand why people try to cover their bodies up.
 
  • #104
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It might happen that what you beleave and what you don't beleave is not an issue any more. The issue is Where we come from,Who we are, and where are we going to be.Do you want to judge the existence of the creater of the universe? Go back to the history! Well, The history is the BIBLE!!! It is the fact that there is no one remember how he or she was at the time of his creation! If that is the fact then the reality is No one know where he or she will be after his death. What happen hear is just beleave from what you have learn in your life time and no one can stop what a creater of the urniverse has decided of what to do. I myself beleave the creator of the urniverse is GOD who made me, you, and everything in this world/earth etc. JUDGE YOUR OWN SOUL.
 
  • #105
megashawn said:
I had always understood that (according to christian beliefs) when a person died, he/she remained in the grave until judgement day. At this time, he was either cast into hell, or welcomed to heaven. I've heard countless storys of heaven being paved with gold (seems like bad traction surface to me).

It seems that everything you say negates the point in going to church, believing in a god. What purpose is it to spend your life worshipping a god that is just going to watch you fade away? People go to church because they are afraid to die, and this #1 fear that we must all face is what churches prey on. If churches preached what you claim, people would not come, as it does not remove one's fear of death anymore so then atheism.

So, according to your beliefs/claims we will never meet our loved ones in heaven, or get chased around hell by the devil and his pitchfork?
Why the hell would heaven be paved with gold? I bet if coal went for 300$ per ounce, heaven would be made of coal according to those same sources.

Do you actually believe you will meet deceased people in heaven or get chased by the devil with a pitchfork in hell? If you really do, I think you need to go ask your mother about the tooth fairy. She has something to tell you that will probably shatter your hope and introduce you to life.
 
  • #106
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Mudvaynelethaldosage said:
"This is one of the first things, if not THE first thing, I questioned about religion when I was a child. It did not seem right (and still doesn't) that anything done within a mere 70 year lifetime could deserve such a horrible eternal punishment. The distance/closeness fate I mentioned above seems to make more sense." 1st reply to topic is quoted here.

"I certainly can't accept that there is a loving and just god that
would allow someone to suffer for eternity. Justice implies a
proportionality between crime and punishment, no finite crime
balances against an infinite punishment" someone quoted here from a different thread, possibly laser eyes.
Fine, don't accept 'it'. Your acceptance (or lack thereof) doesn't change anything one jot or tittle.

Actually, I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss. Because yours is a (valid) question. Perhaps you should consult your Bible, specifically the New Testament Gospels for a reasonable response. You can take it from there (I'll leave the conclusions up to you).

Mudvaynelethaldosage said:
My first doubt of the bible was when I was a child. I had the childrens edition of the bible. It was on the topic of Adam and Eve being created and nudism. It said that Adam and Eve were created nude. They weren't ashamed under the circumstances, they covered themselves with leaves though. It did also state that nudity is a sin in almost any case. This was all said in simpler terms, for children to understand.
What is wrong with nudism? I wear clothes, not because I'm ashamed by my body, but because of the cops, clothing provides protection, and clothing is useful when you're cold. I think the whole reason people started wearing clothing was for protection against their environment. They weren't ashamed of their body. I don't exactly understand why people try to cover their bodies up.
This is why watered-down versions of Christianity and its doctrines are so dangerous - any half-baked skeptic can tear them to bits (and I am not inferring that you are a half-baked skeptic).

By the way, Adam and Eve did not cover themselves with leaves until after the point they became ashamed. Prior to being corrupted by sin (that is, ignoring their Creator) they had no cause for shame because they had no knowledge of evil. Without evil, or for sake of a better word (nouns fail me) 'badness', shame doesn't really have any bearing. How can you be ashamed, unless you feel/think/act wrongly? Perhaps it is not nudity that is shameful, but the lusts it provokes?
 
  • #107
Gokul43201
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Mudvaynelethaldosage said:
"I certainly can't accept that there is a loving and just god that
would allow someone to suffer for eternity. Justice implies a
proportionality between crime and punishment, no finite crime
balances against an infinite punishment"
This may be a little off-topic but according to Hinduism, you do time in Hell depending on the number and enormity of your sins. There's actually many different Gods, and two of them are responsible for keeping accounts of all your deeds.

Not trying to sell anything here...I'm agnostic, or something like that.
 
  • #108
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without bible quotes, please

this thread is about life after death and hell.

now, logically, explain why you do or don't believe in an after life (heaven or hell).

for me, when i looked at what an omni- everything would do, i was able to cut through the propaganda of religions. i am not saying that there is no value in the bible or other texts. i am saying, however, that they are no more the word of god than my comments here. we are all children of whaever god we follow and s/he/it is a part of us. someone may have an enlightened idea to pass on, but they are no more holy or special than the rest of us.

bottom line, heaven and hell are childish concepts. they defy logic on so many fronts that to believe in them is irrational. the only reason that i have found for belief in these ideas is - fear. fear that some of what was said might be true.

if you examine the issue without fear, logic, etc will lead you to a better understanding.

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
  • #109
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olde drunk said:
this thread is about life after death and hell.

now, logically, explain why you do or don't believe in an after life (heaven or hell).

for me, when i looked at what an omni- everything would do, i was able to cut through the propaganda of religions.
Kudos to you, old chap, for you are most certainly approaching the level of this omni-everything. You have sidestepped the apologetics of a millinia of intellectuals so swiftly, so nimbly! Almost deity-like (almost).

olde drunk said:
i am not saying that there is no value in the bible or other texts. i am saying, however, that they are no more the word of god than my comments here. we are all children of whaever god we follow and s/he/it is a part of us. someone may have an enlightened idea to pass on, but they are no more holy or special than the rest of us.
If the Bible is indeed on the same plane as your comments in some obscure forum saved on some obscure web-server in the middle of some place in who-knows-where, then the Bible has no value. So what you are really saying is this: "i am very much saying that there is no value in the bible or other texts..."

olde drunk said:
bottom line, heaven and hell are childish concepts. they defy logic on so many fronts that to believe in them is irrational. the only reason that i have found for belief in these ideas is - fear. fear that some of what was said might be true.
No "omni-everything" should bend the knee to the logic He (or she/it in your overly politically-correct wording) created. If He created Hell, then He created Hell, and "there ain't much you can do about it". Argue it away. Go ahead. Have fun with that. Doesn't really matter.

I realize that forums such as these are meant to foster discussion on topics like the existence of heaven and hell and I apologize for throwing a wet blanket on the fire of these arguments by saying that the arguments are useless. But perhaps this interjection will spawn a whole new subset of discussions... :smile:
 
  • #110
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"When it comes to belief it is anyones game" all we have is one belief versus another, but at all times it is still just a belief. If one chooses to live a life of fear then believe as you wish. The same applies for those that wish to live with out fear and yes you guessed it they also believe as they wish.

Life after death is essentially unknown, now if you want to believe in a certain type of God and his certain types of creations then go for it but please remember it is only a belief.

And as often said belief is not worth Jack sh*t when it comes down to the truth.

Ole drunk has at least identified a potential for delusion and this is admirable, better is it not to say "I don't know and await to find out" than to say "I don't know and then go into a frenzy of speculations designed to placate the fear of not knowing."
 
  • #111
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Scott:

thank you. i am not saying that my way, or your way, or anyone's way is the best way.

from what i have observed and seen, everyone's way is the best way for them. if you want to accept the myths of heaven or hell, so be it. as an intelligent adult, i would like to understand why. i can not find a legitimate reason, other than the propaganda of the ages.

when a wise man sez 'unless you believe in me.......' it is taken and made into a foundation for a religion. i prefer to believe that he was saying, 'unless you believe in what i say...........'. BIG difference.

most wise and learned men do not insist that you accept their teachings on faith. they know that you must listen, think and act in accordance with their guidance. AND, if you're lucky you will see what they have seen or know. truth can not be taught, learned or accepted. truth can only be experienced.

my truths are mine and yours, your's. they may coincide but they will never be the same. we are each seeking value fulfillment in our own unique, individual way. through communication and discussion we, just, might be able to help each other.

i still ask, why or how can you believe in heaven and hell?? yes, i do dismiss the scribes of yore. to me, they were misguided, well intentioned translators and/or transcribers. we do not have the real words of any acient, historical figure. plus, the written word lacks so much, as far as conveyong the full meaning of any quote.

seeing and listening to a politician we can fall into a charismatic trap or understand what he meant. the printed text of that speech, rarely conveys the full message.

oh, to hear jesus, buddha, mohamed, ghandi - live!

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
  • #112
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truth can not be taught, learned or accepted. truth can only be experienced.
'Ole Drunk, This I find a pearl of great wisdom. The truth can only be experienced. hmmmmmm.......
 
  • #113
I notice that the book of revelations has been forgotten about in this debate which basically is all about heaven and hell and life after death. Read it yourself before making judgement please.
 
  • #114
"oh, to hear jesus, buddha, mohamed, ghandi - live!"

There's a thing called astral projection that you should try if you want a live reception from the masters. But with the attitude you have about them at the moment success rate maybe near to zero.
 
  • #115
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dave19903652 said:
I notice that the book of revelations has been forgotten about in this debate which basically is all about heaven and hell and life after death. Read it yourself before making judgement please.
to me, this is but one man's anticipated probable future reality. i do not accept traditional beliefs in heaven, hell, god or salvation.

i expect a better future reality than armageddon. besides, that probable reality may not take place for billions of years. OR, it may have taken place millions of years ago.

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
  • #116
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It could be argued that the "revelations" refer to a "metaphysical" armageddon and not a "physical" armageddon. In other words, a state of insanity.
 
  • #117
The revelations could not have happened millions of years ago as it was written in future tense after the death of Jesus. It could in fact be in play already only stretched out over a long time. Satan may have been let out now as people have only started to question religion a few hundred years ago. Just a thought.

I suppose it could quite easily be like that. After all the bible quite often speaks in 'code' - in a way only the people of the rime, the pure base christians would understand. Now some people, hard core protestants and jehovah witnesses for example take the bible completely literally.
 
  • #118
There are many 'versions' of "the bible." Which one are you referring to and the 'author.'
 
  • #119
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"there is no life or Death but merely existence"
Some one once said.

If there is no life or death but mere existence then this opens the door to thinking along the lines of different states of being with out a fixed criteria of life or death.

So rather than the question of life and death maybe it should just be a question of existence.
 
  • #120
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Or perhaps not to question at all? If the existance of god is so questionable then why not realize that the "truths" of religion are just as questionable sense religion is based on god/gods.
 
  • #121
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we should question everything! all truth is relative, including our beliefs.

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
  • #122
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and we should also question why we are questioning.
 
  • #123
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dave19903652 said:
Satan may have been let out now as people have only started to question religion a few hundred years ago. Just a thought.
people have been questioning religion as long as there has been religion. That is why religion keeps changing.

Jesus was born a Jew, remember? He questioned his religion.
 
  • #124
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I often wonder why people wonder.
 
  • #125
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Life after death?

"Prove to me you exist living and then we can worry about what happens after we live."

I fiind it somewhat amusing that from what I have seen argued we have trouble proving we exist in the first instance so as far as I can tell if this is not provable then why are we bothering with something even more abstract, that being existence after existense which as yet can not be proved as existence......ouch!....my brain hurts! :rofl:
 

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