How many spots will a rotating Stern-Gerlach apparatus produce?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the expected outcomes of a rotating Stern-Gerlach (SG) apparatus when used with electrons, specifically focusing on how many distinct spots would appear on the detection screen. Participants explore the implications of using electrons versus neutral particles, the effects of Lorentz forces, and the theoretical underpinnings of spin measurements in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that with a short pulse of electrons, there should be only two spots on the screen, similar to a static SG apparatus.
  • Another participant questions the reasoning behind the claim of two spots and asks if any mathematical analysis has been performed.
  • Some participants propose using neutral silver atoms instead of electrons, arguing that this would simplify the experiment and avoid complications from the Lorentz force.
  • Concerns are raised about the time duration of the electron pulse relative to the apparatus's rotation, suggesting that a continuous stream would complicate the results.
  • One participant expresses a preference for using electrons, citing their fundamental nature, while acknowledging the practical challenges of using silver atoms.
  • There is a discussion about the potential for using neutrons as an alternative to electrons or silver atoms, with one participant noting that experiments with neutrons have been successful.
  • A participant clarifies that their initial statement about expecting two spots was meant to express uncertainty and invites others to consider the problem.
  • Mathematical reasoning is introduced, comparing the SG apparatus to a series of polarizing filters, suggesting that small rotations could allow for a different outcome than initially expected.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the expected number of spots produced by the rotating SG apparatus. Multiple competing views exist regarding the use of electrons versus neutral particles, the implications of Lorentz forces, and the theoretical framework for understanding spin measurements.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the assumptions underlying their claims, particularly regarding the duration of the electron pulse and the effects of the apparatus's rotation. There are unresolved mathematical steps in the proposed reasoning, particularly in relation to the comparison with polarizing filters.

  • #31
gentzen said:
I am pretty sure that what I mean by "inner structure" is not the source of our misunderstanding.
If by "inner structure" you mean "composite of other particles", then no, we're in agreement on that point.
 
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  • #32
gentzen said:
I did google before I wrote that, and one of the results I found said:
Without a reference to back that statement up I'm not sure how reliable it is.
 
  • #33
Lets tale a step back.

A spin-0 particle cannot have a dipole moment, either electric or magnetic, because there is no direction in which it can point. A similar argument can be made (more mathy) to show a spin-1/2 particle can have a monopole monent (charge), a dipole moment (electric or magnetic) but no higher moments. EDMs open a can of worms that is a big distraction - if you want to discuss them, that should be another thread. So we have MDMs.

The neutrino MDM is measured to be close to zero. As close as we can get. Since magnetic moments go as 1/m, and neutrinos are light, if there were any new physics effect, it should be large. Since we see no evidence whatsoever for this, we know it is very, very small. I do not know what the most stringent limit is, but if the neutrino had even a tiny MDM, the process ##\gamma \rightarrow \nu + \overline{\nu}## would go on all the time. Since we don't see it at all, it either does not happen, or happens way too rarely for us to see it.

In either case, the process is far, far too weak to be seen in a S-G experiment. If this were not the case, we would have seen it elsewhere.

Note that this is the same question as "How do we know that neutrinos are neutral and not almost neutral?" Same answer - "almost" is so close to reality that in virtually every case it does not metter.
 
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