How to know if a complex root is inside the unit circle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining whether complex roots of a quadratic equation derived from a definite integral lie inside the unit circle. Participants explore the implications of their calculations and the properties of complex numbers in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant calculates the roots of a quadratic equation in terms of a complex variable and seeks confirmation on whether the roots lie inside the unit circle.
  • Another participant provides a method to evaluate the modulus of one of the roots, suggesting that if one root's modulus is greater than 1, the other must be less than 1 due to the product of the roots being -1.
  • A later reply questions the clarity of the previous calculations and emphasizes the need for caution when applying real-number rules to complex numbers.
  • Concerns are raised about potentially misapplying rules valid in real analysis to complex analysis, particularly regarding the product of roots in quadratic equations.
  • One participant suggests using polar coordinates as a method to verify the properties of the roots.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of confidence in their calculations and interpretations of complex number properties. There is no consensus on whether the initial conclusions about the roots' locations are definitively correct.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of understanding the differences between real and complex number properties, particularly in the context of quadratic equations and their roots.

dyn
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Hi.
I have been trying to calculate the real definite integral with limits 2π and 0 of ## 1/(k+sin2θ) ##
To avoid the denominator becoming zero I know this means |k|> 1
Making the substitution ##z= e^{iθ}## eventually ends up giving me a quadratic equation in ##z^2## with 2 pairs of roots given by ##z^2 = i (+\sqrt{k^2-1} - k ) ##
and ## z^2 = i (-\sqrt{k^2-1} -k ) ##
The solution then states that"clearly the 1st two poles lie inside the unit circle and the 2nd two outside". This seems reasonable but how do I know for a fact that it is true ?
Thanks
 
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The second is easy. ##|i(-\sqrt{k^2-1}-k)|=|\sqrt{k^2-1}+k|>|k|>1##. The first should be obtainable by multiplying the two.
 
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Thank you. Can I just check that I understand the rest ?
The quadratic equation in ##z^2## is ## z^4 + 2ikz^2 - 1 = 0 ##
The product of the 2 roots is αβ = -1 ⇒ |α|. |β| = 1
So knowing the modulus of one root is greater than 1 , means the modulus of the other root is less than 1

So that gives me , for one root ## |z^2| < 1 ## which also means for that root |z| < 1.
Have I got all that correct ?
Thanks
 
dyn said:
Thank you. Can I just check that I understand the rest ?
The quadratic equation in ##z^2## is ## z^4 + 2ikz^2 - 1 = 0 ##
The product of the 2 roots is αβ = -1 ⇒ |α|. |β| = 1
So knowing the modulus of one root is greater than 1 , means the modulus of the other root is less than 1

So that gives me , for one root ## |z^2| < 1 ## which also means for that root |z| < 1.
Have I got all that correct ?
Thanks
That was the idea, but I cannot see what you have done. ##z## is confusing here, as you use the same letter for different numbers. You haven't mentioned the quadratic equation up to now, only the solutions. But if ## z^4 + 2ikz^2 - 1 = 0 ## is your equation, I get ##z_{1,2,3,4} = \pm \sqrt{-ik \pm \sqrt{1-k^2}}##. I see what you have done to write it as you did. However, one has to be careful with complex numbers. Not every rule which is valid in ##\mathbb{R}## is also valid in ##\mathbb{C}##.
See: https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/things-can-go-wrong-complex-numbers/

I would therefore check the following equations, just to be sure:
\begin{align*}
&z^4+2ikz^2-1=\\
&=\left( z- \sqrt{-ik -\sqrt{1-k^2}} \right)\left(- \sqrt{-ik + \sqrt{1-k^2}} \right)\left( \sqrt{-ik - \sqrt{1-k^2}} \right)\left( \sqrt{-ik + \sqrt{1-k^2}} \right)\\
&=\left( z^2- i\left( \sqrt{k^2-1}-k\right) \right)\left(z^2-i\left(-\sqrt{k^2-1}-k\right) \right)
\end{align*}

Set ##\alpha=i\left( \sqrt{k^2-1}-k \right)\, , \,\beta=i\left( -\sqrt{k^2-1}-k \right)## and then we have ##\alpha \cdot \beta = - \left( -\sqrt{k^2-1}^2 +k^2 \right)= -1## and then what you wrote.
 
fresh_42 said:
However, one has to be careful with complex numbers. Not every rule which is valid in ##\mathbb{R}## is also valid in ##\mathbb{C}##.
See: https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/things-can-go-wrong-complex-numbers/
Do you think I maybe applied a rule valid in ℝ which is not valid in ℂ ? To get the sum of the products I used the fact that for a quadratic equation ## ax^2 +bx + c = 0 ## with 2 roots α and β then αβ = c/a which in the above case is -1 (and I have seen this same result applied to complex quadratic equations)
I presume it is just a coincidence that the product comes to +1 or -1 as this helps make it easier to find out if the roots lie inside the unit circle and if the product is not +1 or -1 it just makes it harder to figure this out
 
I haven't checked, probably not, but that's why I said "make the control calculation" or make sure you can extract ##i=\sqrt{-1}## from the root. The best way to check such things is the representation in polar coordinates: ##z=re^{i\varphi}##.
 

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