How to obtain the magnetic force?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of magnetic force between a coil and a neodymium iron boron (NdFeB) permanent magnet for a project. Participants explore various methods and considerations for obtaining maximum magnetic force, including the design of the coil, specifications of the magnet, and the mathematical modeling of the magnetic fields involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines a procedure for calculating magnetic force, including steps for determining wire size, number of turns, resistance, and magnetic field strength.
  • Another participant questions the units of force being used and the choice of a hollow core material, suggesting that the core material's properties are crucial for accurate calculations.
  • Specifications of the NdFeB magnet are provided, including dimensions, material grade, and pull force ratings, prompting further inquiries about their relevance to the calculations.
  • Some participants indicate that calculating the force is complex and depends on the axial component of the magnetic field gradient produced by both the permanent magnet and the electromagnet.
  • There is a suggestion to model the system using Finite Element Analysis (FEA) software like COMSOL or ANSYS, as analytical methods may not yield satisfactory results.
  • Discussion includes the possibility of treating the solenoid as a sum of rings of current to calculate the magnetic field contributions, although the specifics of modeling the permanent magnet remain unclear.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying opinions on the feasibility of calculations and modeling approaches. There is no consensus on the best method to obtain the magnetic force, with some advocating for experimental approaches while others suggest computational modeling.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the analytical approach, including the complexity of integrating contributions to the magnetic field and the need for precise specifications of materials and geometries. The discussion highlights the dependence on assumptions regarding the core material and the configuration of the magnets.

mmytu
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How to obtain the magnetic force??

Hi ,

I didn't have any experience to design coil and permenent magnet .

Now i have to do one project using coil and magnet NdFeB. But i haven't got the maximum force. (need maxi force between 1300 to 2500)

I am doing the below procedure. Is it correct?
using DC supply 48V,
known value :core internal and external diamer, length
1. choose the wire size (From AWG spec)
2. calculate the number of turns / layer (turns/inches * core length)
3. calculate the number of layers (turns / inches * core thickess)
4. calculate total no of turns (Step 2 * Step 3)
5. calculate the wire length (using AWG spec's : ohm / km)
6. calculate the resistace and current.
7. calculate the B using (B = u0 * N*I/L)
8. calculate Force using (F=B*I*L(length of wire)).

Do i need to consider NdFeB magnet mass and B in this calculation? How can i get the force??

Anybody helps me?

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
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What are your units of force?

And why is the core material hollow?

I assume you want the force between the perm magnet and electromagnet when they are aligned north to south.


You left out some specs.

What is your core material?
What is the shape of the NdFeB magnet and what is it's rating?
 


I want the force between permenent magnet and electromagnet.

Force unit is Newton to design.

I considered that the core material is air core. Is it possible?

And then the shape of NdFeB is Ring Type.

Specification for NdFeB
Dimensions: 3/4" od x 1/2" id x 3/8" thick
Material: NdFeB, Grade N42
Magnetization Direction: Axial (Poles on Flat Ends)
Weight:*0.399 oz. (11.3 g)
Pull Force, Case 1:*16.30 lbs
Pull Force, Case 2:*21.12 lbs
Brmax: 13,200 Gauss
BHmax: 42 MGOe

Do i need to consider anything to get the maximum force?

Thank you Phark..:smile:
 


There's no easy way to calculate the force; it depends on the axial component of the gradient of the net magnetic field produced by the two magnets.
 


Thank you for your reply, Gokul :smile:

Do you mean that I need to find out the net magnetic field B produced by the permenent magnet and electromagnet (Coil)? How can I solve that one?

Now I am finding out the magnetic field B (z) at a distance from the center of a coil again.
So could I use Brmax for permenent magnet from NdFeB specification?

Any idea to solve this problem? :confused:
 


Yes, you can make an electromagnet without a core. If it's a cylindrical in shape, it's called a solenoid.

As Gokul says, it's not an easy problem. If you can't put a problem in mathematical analysis down, and can do calculus you might find it interesting, otherwise there's always experimentation.

You could sum the contributions to the B field at an arbitrary point in space due to the solenoid. Treat the solenoid as the sum of rings of current. For a single layer solenoid this is easiest. You add up the contributions from a bunch of rings all having the same diameter. By add, I mean integrate. If the inner windings are much less in diameter than the outer windings, you will need to take that into account with a double integral.

Next you consider how the field acts on the neodymium magnet which you treat as bunch of magnetic dipoles. I'm not sure how this is done. Somehow we would need to figure out the dipole strength per unit volume of material given the specs of N42...

However it might help if you said what you had in mind with this project.
 
Last edited:


mmytu said:
Any idea to solve this problem? :confused:
Yes, you would have to model the system on a Finite Element package (like COMSOL or ANSYS). You will not get anywhere close with paper and pencil.

The easier approach is to solve it experimentally.
 


Gokul43201 said:
Yes, you would have to model the system on a Finite Element package (like COMSOL or ANSYS). You will not get anywhere close with paper and pencil.

If you were to apply finite elements, how would you model the perm magnet give the material data sheet?
 
I don't know yet since I haven't done it myself, but I imagine packages like COMSOL and ANSYS have something built-in specifically for permanent magnets.

Edit: Yes, found these, so it should be doable:
http://www.it.comsol.com/showroom/gallery/1414/
http://www.comsol.com/showroom/gallery/78/
http://www.comsol.com/community/forums/general/thread/3155/
 
  • #10
Gokul43201 said:
I don't know yet since I haven't done it myself, but I imagine packages like COMSOL and ANSYS have something built-in specifically for permanent magnets.

Edit: Yes, found these, so it should be doable:
http://www.it.comsol.com/showroom/gallery/1414/
http://www.comsol.com/showroom/gallery/78/
http://www.comsol.com/community/forums/general/thread/3155/

Is this one of those $2000 packages that amatures aren't interested in?
 

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