Huygens Office Pool Bets: Friday's Options

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The discussion revolves around the Huygens probe's landing on Titan, with participants expressing excitement and anticipation for the data received. Initial predictions about the landing site being solid were confirmed, as images showed rocky terrain with no visible lakes, although some speculate about the presence of hydrocarbon lakes. Concerns about equipment failure were raised, but the probe successfully transmitted data, albeit fewer images than expected due to a channel failure. Participants debated the use of color cameras on the probe, highlighting the challenges of space technology and data transmission. Overall, the mission is viewed as significant, providing valuable insights into Titan's geology and atmosphere despite some disappointment in image quality.
  • #31
Entropy said:
Still don't understand how why they couldn't put color cameras on the probe.

Anyways, I'm a little disapointed with the results, don't know why. Surface pictures look exactly like Mars and Venus. Except for that picture it took during the decent that looked cool. Hopefully the chemical anaylsis stuff will be more interesting.

It might interest you to know that they don't have colour cameras on the Mars Rovers either...
They have black and white cameras with filters for different wavelengths on them that they later combine to form near true colour images.

I'm not sure if Hugens has these filters or not.. probably not though.
 
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  • #32
It might interest you to know that they don't have colour cameras on the Mars Rovers either...

Last time I looked at a Mars photo I saw red soil, brown rocks, a blue sky with a yellow sun rising.

I just wanted to see a good color photo of what's below all that yellow hase. I'm just shocked that we can sent a hunk of metal half a billion miles into space and land it on a tiny chunk of rock spinning around the sun at several thousand miles per hour and not seem to be able to stick a color camera. They can put a color camera on my sister's phone that can save 5 minute of film but the ESA can't put a color camera on a space probe?! We had color cameras when we landed on the moon for crying out loud!
 
  • #33
We had color cameras in the 1950's for cryin out loud. I get better pictures at Wal Mart for cryin out loud. I agree with you.
 
  • #34
Entropy said:
Last time I looked at a Mars photo I saw red soil, brown rocks, a blue sky with a yellow sun rising.

I just wanted to see a good color photo of what's below all that yellow hase. I'm just shocked that we can sent a hunk of metal half a billion miles into space and land it on a tiny chunk of rock spinning around the sun at several thousand miles per hour and not seem to be able to stick a color camera. They can put a color camera on my sister's phone that can save 5 minute of film but the ESA can't put a color camera on a space probe?! We had color cameras when we landed on the moon for crying out loud!

Dude, did you read the rest of my post about how they take colour pictures on Mars?

Anyway, the Colour pictures from the moon were from film cameras that the astronauts used. I'm pretty sure all the other landers on the moon before were all black and white and if there were any colour images it was because of filters. I think the reason lies in the fact that you can get much more valuable scientific data if you filter out certian wavelengths... Also, it's much easier to compress greyscale images (and cheaper/lighter to built b/w cameras).

Any space engineers want to back me up?
 
  • #35
errorist said:
We had color cameras in the 1950's for cryin out loud. I get better pictures at Wal Mart for cryin out loud. I agree with you.

You want to send 700 5-megapixal full coloured uncompressed images over an antenna about as powerful as a cell phone to an orbiting satellite several thousand kilometers away and then transmit that back to Earth 1.2 billion km away in a mission designed to last for 3 hours?

BTW, these first images are the raw, unprocessed low res images. There are higher resolutions pictures that will probably be put up later.
 
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  • #36
Maybe we've been hornswaggled - a la 'Plan 9 From Outer Space'. That Huygens probe always looked suspiciously like a Jiffy-Pop popcorn container to me. :biggrin:
 
  • #37
http://anthony.liekens.net/index.php/Main/Huygens <--amature mosaics

http://homepage.mac.com/lyford/j/raw/_._.html <--raw images

Animation from raw images (I stared making my own till I found this one:
http://www.mars.asu.edu/~gorelick/huygens1.gif
Holy crap, there's something flying around down there! :confused:
:-p
And an animation I made. http://img51.exs.cx/img51/241/animation342uy.gif (lossy)
 
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  • #38
Another waste of a space mission, pictures of rocks wow, i hope
this is the last, and maybe the time money can be spent on whats
really going on out their.
 
  • #39
Wolram.

I think the pictures that has been produced (at least to us) are not the final ones, and i hint that there are indeed hydrocarbon lakes on Titan.

So by no means is it a wasteful mission.
 
  • #40
wolram said:
Another waste of a space mission, pictures of rocks wow, i hope
this is the last, and maybe the time money can be spent on whats
really going on out their.

This is how we learn about things Worlem. If people didn't research the ‘mundane’ Mandel Gregor would never have come up with his theory of genes from studying peas and Faraday would not have invented the electric motor after playing with magnets.

Having said that, I in no way think that this was mundane.
 
  • #42
http://homepage.mac.com/lyford/ramm/pano567-nodupes.jpg
 
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  • #44
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just send a Kodak camera from Wall Mart. It would be in color and the resolution would be a million times greater. :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

You know one of those el chepo 5 dollar models
 
  • #45
Make a time machine, buy a camera and send it back to 1996.

BTW, do you know the data transfer speed between Huygens and Cassini?
 
  • #46
wolram - Huygens did more than just take pictures. It also took many atmospheric measurements (physical, chemical, photochemical, magnetic) on its way down to the surface. The photos give broader (although less detailed) information regarding things like geology, "hydro"geology, etc. Huygens is also just one part of the overall Cassini mission.

errorist - - They can't just put the latest technology on spacecraft . There is several years testing & modifications required to make sure each component can survive liftoff, survive the journey (temperature, radiation, etc.), and survive the landing. Plus, like s3nn0c said, it was launched 7 years ago. So, 7 years plus a few more for testing/modifications is the technology level you're working with. Just think how far computers have come in the past 10 years.
 
  • #48
I am sorry, but these missions, will tell us nothing about our origins
and the basic things we need to know about our origins, what is space,
what is gravity, what is energy, these are the basics we need to
understand, not what the composition of some rock is, i say spend
the money on disproving some of the semi crackpot theories of
accepted science.
 
  • #49
it was launched 7 years ago

Yeah 7 years ago with a multi-million dollar budge! With a few million dollar back in '98 you think you could make something that atleast produces images with quality on par with a cheap-ass cell phone camera, and it doesn't even need to fit in a little cell phone.
 
  • #50
A 360 degrees panoramic showing the landing site...
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/cassini/images/050115montage.jpg

The white features are not snow, as I have read somebody suggest. They are probably low altitude clouds

With respect to the mission, I can't see how can be trivial: is the farthest landing ever made by a human probe...
 
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  • #51
errorist said:
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just send a Kodak camera from Wall Mart. It would be in color and the resolution would be a million times greater. :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

You know one of those el chepo 5 dollar models

And you do you propose they send this film to Cassini? Those $5 kodak cameras aren't digital you know.
 
  • #52
errorist said:
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just send a Kodak camera from Wall Mart. It would be in color and the resolution would be a million times greater. :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

You know one of those el chepo 5 dollar models
Hmm, let's see now ... how does this kind of camera produce an image?

What is the range of light intensities that it is capable of handling?

How well does it withstand 7 years in deep space (cosmic rays etc)?

What is the wavelength range of its sensitivity?

How do these compare with what we have now determined as the key range we need to 'see' on Titan?

How does it produce its paper end-product?

How well do you think this would work on Titan (temperature, pressure, gas composition of 'atmosphere', ...)?

How would you send the paper end-product back to Earth?

How much energy and mass would this (modified?) $5 Kodak camera require?

How do these compare with the Huygens cameras?

Since this is a one-shot deal, why do you feel that such a $5 camera would be more reliable than what Huygens has?

If you were the one making the final decision on which camera to include on Huygens, would you be prepared to take the responsibility if it didn't work?
 
  • #53
Entropy said:
Yeah 7 years ago with a multi-million dollar budge! With a few million dollar back in '98 you think you could make something that atleast produces images with quality on par with a cheap-ass cell phone camera, and it doesn't even need to fit in a little cell phone.
Hey Entropy, pretend I'm from Missouri ... show me! Please pay particular attention to making me confident it will work, after 7 years in deep space, a descent through Titan's atmosphere (you are allowed to work with only what was known 8 years ago, with all its attendant uncertainty), and the (electrical) power and mass allocated (or less; for every 10% less on either, you get a gold star).
 
  • #54
Titan Terrain...

DARMSTADT, Germany -- A European space probe Friday sent back the first detailed pictures of the frozen surface of Saturn's moon Titan, showing stunning black and white images of what appeared to be hilly terrain riddled with channels or riverbeds carved by a liquid.

One picture, taken about 10 miles above the surface as the Huygens spacecraft descended by parachute to a safe landing after a seven-year voyage from Earth, showed snaking, dark lines cut into the light-colored surface.

Another image, taken about five miles above the surface, showed light and dark masses, which Tomasko said seemed to be shadows, indicating a varied terrain. The dark areas appeared to be flooded or to have been so at an earlier time.

A third image taken at the surface showed several large white chunks -- boulders or blocks of water ice -- in the foreground and a stretch of gray surface behind them.

Titan is the first moon other than the Earth's to be explored. Scientists believe its atmosphere is similar to that of the young Earth, and studying it could provide clues to how life arose here.

Titan is the first moon other than the Earth's to be explored. Scientists believe its atmosphere is similar to that of the young Earth, and studying it could provide clues to how life arose here.

Huygens was spun off from the Cassini mother ship on Dec. 24 before its descent to the surface of Titan. The mission is a joint effort among NASA, the European Space Agency and the Italian space agency.

Scientists say they received more than three hours of data from Huygens's descent, and more than 10 minutes of data from the surface itself.
Reference:
http://www.harktheherald.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=45296&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
 
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  • #55
meteor said:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMC8Q71Y3E_0.html
First color view of Titan surface

I'm really drooling... I swear it...
This isn't precisely a color picture, according to http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/huygens_images_0115.html :
The middle one shows "the general impression of the color from the surface of Titan," according to Tomasko. "There is a slightly orange sky and orange general tone to the material. This is the view you would have if you were standing on Titan," he finished enthusiastically. The color was applied using data from the "spectral radiometer" component of the DISR instrument, which gathers information at a much lower resolution than the imager, so what you see is a wash of color over the black-and-white image.
It would be interesting to know how low-resolution the spectral radiometer was--could they distinguish between the shade of the sky and the shade of the ground, for example?
 
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  • #56
Also, have a look at http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/test_images.htm from the same website).

The surface image will probably never be super-clear, because Huygens had three cameras, a downward-pointing one, a 45-degree-angle one, and a side-pointing one, and the downward-pointing camera was the highest-resolution while the side-pointing one was the lowest-resolution. On the other hand, they took a whole bunch of pictures of the same scene once Huygens landed, so maybe they can combine the information from all of them into a fairly sharp image.

Here's a sample of a picture made with the DISR cameras on earth, presumably after all the processing was done:

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/images/bashar/mosaic_2.jpg

This page also sort of addresses my question in the post above about the resolution of the color data:
By dividing the spectra recorded by the downward-looking visible spectrometer (DLVS) into three color bins (Red, Green and Blue) and comparing their intensities with that of a bin covering the same spectral region as that of the DISR imagers (HRI, MRI and SLI), a fairly decent colorization was implemented. Possessing the relatively low spatial resolution of the DLVS (4 by 4 degrees) the coloring of the DISR imagers looks impressionistic, but succeeds in capturing the various large surface units of the images, including the grass, the concrete and the bricks.
Here's an image "colorized" using this technique:

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/images/bashar/mosaic_c_1.jpg
 
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  • #57
JesseM said:
The surface image will probably never be super-clear, because Huygens had three cameras, a downward-pointing one, a 45-degree-angle one, and a side-pointing one, and the downward-pointing camera was the highest-resolution while the side-pointing one was the lowest-resolution. On the other hand, they took a whole bunch of pictures of the same scene once Huygens landed, so maybe they can combine the information from all of them into a fairly sharp image.

Here's a stacked image I made from 99 surface images from an animation using registax http://img144.exs.cx/img144/7416/check15fj.jpg
I think the animation doubled the size of teh raw pictures though.

Anyway, I was wondering if (maybe someone who's familiar with Registax might know) how to actually increase resolution using the stacking technique, rather than just reducing noise? I think it's called 'superpixel' and I've seen it done with some Pathfinder images that increased the resolution by a factor of 3 I think.
 
  • #59
wolram said:
Another waste of a space mission, pictures of rocks wow, i hope
this is the last, and maybe the time money can be spent on whats
really going on out their.


just a reminder, Huygens is an ATMOSPHERIC probe. The primary goal is to learn about the atmosphere. Unfortunately, atmosphere is not as suitable for taking pictures as surfaces, so the pictures may look a little dissappointing. However, the main value of this particular mission is not in its ability to take pictures (like it is for MER, which are geologic probes) but taking data from the atmosphere: the detailed composition of the air, isotopes, compositions and number of aerosols, clouds, temperature, you name it: all was measured by Huygens. This will take a while to process though, but will be very usefull.
 
  • #60

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