I must be discomprehending the Rutherford scattering cross section.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the interpretation and implications of the Rutherford scattering cross section, particularly focusing on how mass and charge influence scattering outcomes. Participants explore theoretical aspects, potential limitations of the formula, and the conditions under which it applies.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the interpretation of the Rutherford scattering equation, questioning the independence of scattering proportions from mass and charge.
  • Another participant agrees that the fraction of particles in a solid angle does not depend on mass or charge, but emphasizes that the total number scattered does depend on these factors.
  • A participant raises a concern about the validity of the scattering formula at certain angles, asking if there is a known cutoff angle for its applicability.
  • One reply suggests that the formula is an idealization and its limitations depend on the required accuracy of the results.
  • Another participant uses an analogy about spending fractions of money to clarify that while fractions may remain constant, the total amounts can vary based on mass and charge.
  • A participant points out that integrating the formula over all solid angles leads to infinite results and questions the conservation of particles, noting that not all particles are scattered.
  • There is a discussion about the divergence of the formula in the forward direction and the implications for calculating the total number of scattered particles.
  • Participants acknowledge the need for clarity on the range of angles where the scattering rule is valid, indicating that this is crucial for understanding the total scattering outcomes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the scattering formula, its limitations, and the conditions under which it applies. There is no consensus on the specific cutoff angle or the implications of integrating the formula over all solid angles.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential divergence of the formula at small angles and the need for further clarification on the range of angles applicable to the scattering rule. The discussion highlights the complexity of interpreting the scattering outcomes based on mass and charge.

Dilettante
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I do not understand the interpretation of the http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rutsca.html" .

To me, that equation says:
(1) for a given θ, the proportion of particles exiting at θ does NOT depend on mass or charge;
(2) if you integrated over all possible scattering angles, you would not get 1, but would get a number that depends on mass and charge.

What do these symbols really mean, in this context?
 
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That's right - the fraction of particles inside a solid angle Ω doesn't depend on mass (actually kinetic energy) or charge, but the total number scattered does.
 
And you don't see why I have a problem with that?
I found another source that suggested that the scattering formula is only true for some angles (above some minimum). Is that correct? Do you know what the cutoff might e?
 
No, why would you have a problem with that? (Or, put another way, it's difficult to guess the problem - this will help understand where the difficulty is)

This formula, like most formulas, is an idealization, just like massless pulleys and massless ropes. Where it breaks down depends on how accurate an answer you need.
 
Perhaps the problem is you are not placing enough importance on the word "fraction". If I say I spend a certain fraction of my money on food, and another fraction on entertainment, then you still have no idea how much money I spend on either. You might spend similar fractions of your money on those things-- but you might have a totally different amount of money to spend. So the amounts we spend might depend on how much we have, but the fractions might not. So it is with the scattering formula.
 
But clearly if you integrate the formula over all solid angles, (1) the answer is infinite, (2) the total changes with mass and charge.
Yet, presumably the total number of particles going out should equal the number going in.
I'm re-reading Vanadium's first answer, which suggests that only some of the particles get scattered at all, which might explain the problem.
Is there a source on what range of θ the rule applies to?
 
Dilettante said:
But clearly if you integrate the formula over all solid angles, (1) the answer is infinite, (2) the total changes with mass and charge.
Apparently the formula cannot be taken seriously in the forward direction where theta is small, as it does indeed diverge in that direction. So there's no easy way to know the integrated number of alpha particles that get deflected in total, but you can still find the rate of alpha particles entering any theta bin when theta is not small. That number depends on the KE (explicitly) and the charge (implicitly) of the alpha particle.
Yet, presumably the total number of particles going out should equal the number going in.
Not necessarily, the formula does not count the alpha particles that pass right through. To know how many scatter at all, we'd need to be able to believe the formula near theta=0 enough to be able to do the integral over solid angle, but as you point out that is not the case here. Note that we are definitely in the limit where most of the alpha particles pass right through, or else the scattered fraction would not be proportional to L.
Is there a source on what range of θ the rule applies to?
I can't answer that, but you are right this is crucial to knowing the total number of alpha particles that get scattered-- the formula is highly forward scattering.
 

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