# News Illegal immigration really bad in Europe

#### JesseC

@Evo @gravenewworld

Perhaps a more measured response on my part would look like this,

1) The OP, having visited only capital cities is going to get a very biased sample of the general proportion of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, in a country. I am amazed that he/she uses this sample to justify claims that the immigration problem in the EU must therefore be 'bad'. Especially given that 'bad' is an extremely vague term.

2) The OP claims that paris, at times, looks to have been transformed into a 3rd world country. It makes me wonder how many third world countries OP has visited before, I would be interested to know.

My own views on the subject would be on the lines of:

Immigration is a very important issue, BUT the debate is unfortunately guided by a press that like to write stories that make people angry and scared of immigrants. The government who want to win more votes seeming 'tough on immigration' in the same way they like to be 'tough on crime'.

Perhaps we should feel more sympathy and try to empathise with those who would risk their lives leaving their own country to seek a better life. Rather than look down on them as some annoyance getting in our way.

#### Evo

Mentor
@Evo @gravenewworld

Perhaps a more measured response on my part would look like this,

1) The OP, having visited only capital cities is going to get a very biased sample of the general proportion of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, in a country. I am amazed that he/she uses this sample to justify claims that the immigration problem in the EU must therefore be 'bad'. Especially given that 'bad' is an extremely vague term.

2) The OP claims that paris, at times, looks to have been transformed into a 3rd world country. It makes me wonder how many third world countries OP has visited before, I would be interested to know.

My own views on the subject would be on the lines of:

Immigration is a very important issue, BUT the debate is unfortunately guided by a press that like to write stories that make people angry and scared of immigrants. The government who want to win more votes seeming 'tough on immigration' in the same way they like to be 'tough on crime'.

Perhaps we should feel more sympathy and try to empathise with those who would risk their lives leaving their own country to seek a better life. Rather than look down on them as some annoyance getting in our way.
I'm curious, do you live in Paris or have you been there? Parts of Paris, for example where the violent rioting took place, is a good example.

Of course we in the US are having similar problems. This exerpt is wrongly titled "France's Immigrant Problem—and Ours", after reading it, it is actually the the US's problem with Mexican immigrants, with a couple of comments on France's problems.

It's from 2006 and the stats are outdated, but over all I think it explains the immigrant's dilema.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.999/article_detail.asp [Broken]

While I feel for the people, I am also realistic in knowing that these problems won't be fixed by putting bandaids over the problem and that other countries cannot continue to take these people in. The root cause of these people leaving their home countries needs to be fixed. Unfortunately, that is also unlikely.

People's attitudes can be changed, years ago I was arguing in favor of Mexican immigrants, saying they were harder workers and just honest people trying to create a better life for themselves and their families, and if they were willing to take the low paying jobs that American's didnt want, that it was our own fault. I'm now convinced of how naive I was.

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#### pftest

There has to be a limit to immigration, Europe simply doesnt have unlimited resources to support everyone. It doesnt help when many immigrants have a hateful belief system either.

#### WhoWee

I never knew it was this bad here in Europe until visiting this time around again. Almost everywhere I went from the Vatican and Spanish steps in Italy to the eiffel tower and versailles in France, I was constantly approached by illegal immigrants trying to sell me junk or knock off stuff. I feel bad for them just trying to make 15 euro a day so they can eat, but at the same time it looks like Paris is transformed into a 3rd world country with tons of cheap street vendors everywhere pushing shopping carts loaded with canisters they burn trash in order to grill things. I really don't see how much longer the EU can keep it up. There are TONS of illegals in Italy and France, the EU problem may be even worse than the one we have in he US.
Doesn't the French welfare state extend to these people - do they have medical care?

#### WhoWee

They didn't want any of us buying from the people selling fake goods. All I had were dresses since there were very strict dress codes at a lot of places we were going, then they sprung the elephant camp on us and I had nothing that I could have reasonably worn and didn't have time to go shopping.
Wouldn't a nice polka-dot summer dress be ideal for a brisk elephant ride through the countryside?

#### Evo

Mentor
There has to be a limit to immigration, Europe simply doesnt have unlimited resources to support everyone. It doesnt help when many immigrants have a hateful belief system either.
I wouldn't call it a hateful belief system, it's just not a compatible belief system. The French are very open minded and their easygoing lifestyle just doesn't fit with more strict and unforgiving beliefs, and while some do make an effort to fit in, many don't, and that is disrespectful to the host country, IMO.

I think a good example of immigrating and keeping your beliefs while not disrespecting your host country is the Othodox Jews in the US, the Amish are a good example of how you can peacefully co-exist.

Outside of the problems inherent to a large immigrant population that hasn't been assimilated, I honestly don't know more about the cultural conflicts than I have read about.

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#### JesseC

I'm curious, do you live in Paris or have you been there? Parts of Paris, for example where the violent rioting took place, is a good example.

Of course we in the US are having similar problems. This exerpt is wrongly titled "France's Immigrant Problem—and Ours", after reading it, it is actually the the US's problem with Mexican immigrants, with a couple of comments on France's problems.

It's from 2006 and the stats are outdated, but over all I think it explains the immigrant's dilema.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.999/article_detail.asp [Broken]

While I feel for the people, I am also realistic in knowing that these problems won't be fixed by putting bandaids over the problem and that other countries cannot continue to take these people in. The root cause of these people leaving their home countries needs to be fixed. Unfortunately, that is also unlikely.

I have been to Paris, and I've been to France many times. In fact I live about two and half hour train journey away from Paris, under the sea.

My impression is that the immigrant population in Paris is a lot more ghettoised, and the attitude towards immigrants a lot less tolerant than here in the UK. Have a load of poor immigrants living in ghettos constantly on the receiving end of police searches... its the fuel for spontaneous rioting. All it takes is some incident involving dead teenagers and the police to start it off...

In so far as solving the problem, Astronuc summed it up in one line. Basically a massive, selfless investment in the developing world. I would also add to that perhaps if we started less wars all over the place, and took a real active interest in preventing wars in other countries then that would help too. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the civilian population of the developed world thought the same way. However, it seems our 'leaders' don't really give a toss... just compare the foreign aid and development budget to the "defence" budget.

In the mean time I think we CAN go some way to putting a band-aid over the problem. An amnesty for illegal immigrants currently in the country would make them tax-payers rather than just cheap labour.

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#### drankin

All immigration into any country should be done in a controlled and deliberate manner. Otherwise people rush to where ever the grass is greener until the grass is all gone.

#### Evo

Mentor
In so far as solving the problem, Astronuc summed it up in one line. Basically a massive, selfless investment in the developing world.
And I see that as being completely unrealistic and not offering a means to the solution. If I could solve all of the world's problems by saying the solution is that everyone should share everything and everyone should be equal, it's a useless statement, it offers no means to get there.

#### JesseC

And I see that as being completely unrealistic and not offering a means to the solution. If I could solve all of the world's problems by saying the solution is that everyone should share everything and everyone should be equal, it's a useless statement, it offers no means to get there.
Not with that attitude it doesn't :P

P.S. I'm an idealist but not necessarily a pragmatist and I'm happy for it.

#### Proton Soup

Thanks, that is the forerunner to the article I posted about the trains from Italy being blocked.

Apparently Italy doesn't want these refugees so they started dumping them on trains to France, without discussing it. France was not prepared to handle the refugees. It's like these countries are playing childish games of "hot potato" with these people.

When boats of Cuban refugees arrive in Florida, the people are returned to Cuba, they aren't sent to Canada.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/03/world/us-will-return-refugees-to-cuba-in-policy-switch.html
it's certainly not as simple as it seems, is it? for decades now we've waged an economic war on Cuba. and what really brought the cuban refugee problem to a head was when Castro started using it as an opportunity to dump his prison population on us. suddenly freedom from communism didn't look so great after all.

france is part of a coalition waging war on north africa right now. they should expect refugees. and even if they don't expect them, they share some of the burden in dealing with them.

I think a good example of immigrating and keeping your beliefs while not disrespecting your host country is the Othodox Jews in the US
actually, i can give you a bunch of examples that this is not true. there's not a lot of respect for the civil authority.

#### Evo

Mentor
Not with that attitude it doesn't :P

P.S. I'm an idealist but not necessarily a pragmatist and I'm happy for it.
awww {{{{hugs}}}}

It's so nice to be able to discuss things from different viewpoints in a nice way.

#### 256bits

Gold Member
They didn't want any of us buying from the people selling fake goods. All I had were dresses since there were very strict dress codes at a lot of places we were going, then they sprung the elephant camp on us and I had nothing that I could have reasonably worn and didn't have time to go shopping.
If you would have asked the tour guide to take you to a place to buy shorts, I suspect you would have been charged $20, and for fake shorts and he would have saiid good bargain -good quality. A lot of times the tour guides and shops are "intrerelated" and they play the scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. He was mad because he himself lost out on his "commission" ( ie kickback ). He would not tell you that. A friend once went on a guided tour through Nigeria some years back. By chance(sic) they had a couple hour wait before the return flight. The tour guide suggested a refreshing stop for the wait at a bar and off the group went. Low and behold, a drink cost$20, and girls with compromising proposals were available.

I hope that is not too off topic.

#### Evo

Mentor
If you would have asked the tour guide to take you to a place to buy shorts, I suspect you would have been charged \$20, and for fake shorts and he would have saiid good bargain -good quality. A lot of times the tour guides and shops are "intrerelated" and they play the scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. He was mad because he himself lost out on his "commission" ( ie kickback ). He would not tell you that.
I guess that I should explain that this was a trip for GE executives, an all expenses paid extravanganza through Japan & Thailand. We were about to board a private jet when I realized that I had nothing suitable for mounting an elephant. I decided to grab something quickly before we got into the limo/bus from the hotel.

We were warned about the people working scams with the "shops".

#### zomgwtf

This is sorta off-topic but Evo how can you say that they 'let too many immigrants in' and others in this thread are making immigration seem undesirable or as a 'well we have to do it'.

Maybe it's been growing up in Canada but I don't see any problem with immigration at all... I was thinking about this the other day, how representative the level of multiculturalism found where I live is of the world. I mean on a day-to-day basis I see people from every part of the world and hear at least 10 different languages, easily. There's no problems really... no one looks at each other weird based on where they are from or what language they are speaking.

Being rude to people based on their background is actually really rare. It does happen but fairly rarely (to my knowledge) so it's hard for me to see a problem with immigration.

#### pftest

All immigration into any country should be done in a controlled and deliberate manner. Otherwise people rush to where ever the grass is greener until the grass is all gone.
Exactly, and i think the world should also start taking massive birth control measures to make the grass more green everywhere.

#### mege

This is sorta off-topic but Evo how can you say that they 'let too many immigrants in' and others in this thread are making immigration seem undesirable or as a 'well we have to do it'.

Maybe it's been growing up in Canada but I don't see any problem with immigration at all... I was thinking about this the other day, how representative the level of multiculturalism found where I live is of the world. I mean on a day-to-day basis I see people from every part of the world and hear at least 10 different languages, easily. There's no problems really... no one looks at each other weird based on where they are from or what language they are speaking.

Being rude to people based on their background is actually really rare. It does happen but fairly rarely (to my knowledge) so it's hard for me to see a problem with immigration.
Canada has fairly strict immigration requirements when compared to many European countries and the US. When I looked at moving to Toronto a few years ago, with having close relatives, and a job prospect - it was going to be very hard for me to get a long-term visa, let alone citizenship. If I was a doctor or had an 'in need skill' (basically any medical professional, some types of engineers) then it would have been easy. Being yet another IT Professional didn't help my cause at all. I have a High School friend that is very close to obtaining her citizenship in Germany after living there a few years - she doesn't really have a job of note. While I don't consider her an undesirable - this illustrates the basic differences between the policies.

It's also important to note that there is a difference between those that are legal immigrants and those that are illegal immigrants. Canada (per some numbers thrown around on Wiki) has at most 100,000 illegal immigrants. Compare that to the US at about 14million illegal immigrants. Refuges or not, if someone is already willing to break your country's laws - do you really want them to stay?

I think Canada has done well with with their immigration policy, but I don't think it has been strained by illegal immigrants like much of Europe or the US - so it's hard to compare the culture difference. The immigrants in Canada have been properly indoctrinated into the society enough that there is no strain on the majority, like what happens elsewhere.

#### zomgwtf

Canada has fairly strict immigration requirements when compared to many European countries and the US. When I looked at moving to Toronto a few years ago, with having close relatives, and a job prospect - it was going to be very hard for me to get a long-term visa, let alone citizenship. If I was a doctor or had an 'in need skill' (basically any medical professional, some types of engineers) then it would have been easy. Being yet another IT Professional didn't help my cause at all. I have a High School friend that is very close to obtaining her citizenship in Germany after living there a few years - she doesn't really have a job of note. While I don't consider her an undesirable - this illustrates the basic differences between the policies.

It's also important to note that there is a difference between those that are legal immigrants and those that are illegal immigrants. Canada (per some numbers thrown around on Wiki) has at most 100,000 illegal immigrants. Compare that to the US at about 14million illegal immigrants. Refuges or not, if someone is already willing to break your country's laws - do you really want them to stay?

I think Canada has done well with with their immigration policy, but I don't think it has been strained by illegal immigrants like much of Europe or the US - so it's hard to compare the culture difference. The immigrants in Canada have been properly indoctrinated into the society enough that there is no strain on the majority, like what happens elsewhere.
Most of my friends are immigrants and the majority of them had tried many other countries prior to Canada. My one friends dad was emigrating from Bulgaria to America as a Chemical Engineer, they wouldn't allow him but Canada let him in no problem... perhaps his job skills were more in demand as you say but I doubt this is true for the vast majority of immigrants here in Canada. Most of them have very limited education. I assume you're from Germany so perhaps that's the main obstacle. You would need a very good reason to emigrate from Germany to any country almost.

For instance if I wanted to go to France it would be close to impossible for me since I'm Canadian. My real father is actually from France to boot. Why should they accept me as an immigrant when I come from a well off nation?

I wasn't speaking about illegal immigrants just about immigration in general so it's a bit of a derail but just something I was thinking about. We don't really have an illegal immigration problem because a)we let people in quite frequently and easily and b)we don't border any nation with low standards of life where transportation to Canada would be easy.

It's easy to travel from Afria/Asia to Europe, compare that to getting from there to Canada, or from Mexico to Canada. I think most of our illegals are Americans actually.

#### Evo

Mentor
If I'm not mistaken Ivan Seeking and his wife had tried to immigrate to Canada a few years ago and finally gave up. Apparently Canadians don't want Americans, can't say that I blame them.

#### turbo

Gold Member
If I'm not mistaken Ivan Seeking and his wife had tried to immigrate to Canada a few years ago and finally gave up. Apparently Canadians don't want Americans, can't say that I blame them.
The US doesn't want Canadians, either. In our last neighborhood, a very nice medical lab technician moved into the house across the street. She had to find a place within walking distance to the hospital because although her epilepsy was under control, she couldn't get a drivers license and had to walk everywhere. As soon as her husband got their house in Ontario sold, he and their daughter moved here too. He got a job as a graphic artist for a local sign/graphics business at the end of our street. They were a great couple and their little girl was a joy - very quirky and creative.

Unfortunately, Immigration refused to let them have a shot a citizenship, and when her work-visa expired, the mother had to go back to Canada to get work, and the father and daughter followed her a few months later after he got their house sold. His visa still hadn't expired, but he couldn't stand keeping the family split. Two bright hard-working people and their nice young daughter forced to return to Canada. Our immigration policy is pretty sick, judging from this one close-to-home example.

#### Evo

Mentor
The US doesn't want Canadians, either. In our last neighborhood, a very nice medical lab technician moved into the house across the street. She had to find a place within walking distance to the hospital because although her epilepsy was under control, she couldn't get a drivers license and had to walk everywhere. As soon as her husband got their house in Ontario sold, he and their daughter moved here too. He got a job as a graphic artist for a local sign/graphics business at the end of our street. They were a great couple and their little girl was a joy - very quirky and creative.

Unfortunately, Immigration refused to let them have a shot a citizenship, and when her work-visa expired, the mother had to go back to Canada to get work, and the father and daughter followed her a few months later after he got their house sold. His visa still hadn't expired, but he couldn't stand keeping the family split. Two bright hard-working people and their nice young daughter forced to return to Canada. Our immigration policy is pretty sick, judging from this one close-to-home example.
It's nothing to do with her being Canadian, unless there was a block at the time. I haven't found which countries have used up the immigration quotas, I've seen it before, but the darn website has changed.

Each year there is an allotment of how many random green cards will be awarded (green card lottery) to which countries. This does not include special circumstances.

It doesn't sound as if she personally qualified, she should have known that, but maybe thought she'd get lucky.

Good old wikipedia.

Ineligible countries

Those born in any territory that has sent more than 50,000 immigrants to the United States in the previous five years are not eligible to receive a diversity visa. For DV-2012, natives of the following nations are ineligible: Brazil, Canada, China (mainland-born), Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, Poland, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam.[2] The entry period to apply for the DV-2012 was from October 5, 2010 to November 3, 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa

This would have been her only chance if she didn't fall into one of the preferred categories.

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#### turbo

Gold Member
This was 8-9 or so years ago, so I don't know what the eligibility rules were then. Still, they were a very nice hard-working couple and great neighbors. The daughter was following in her father's footsteps and was a very accomplished artist for her age (10 or so).

#### Proton Soup

the plan seems to be to sell more guns to mexican drug smugglers to take back to mexico and wreak havoc, causing people to flee across the border back to the united states.

#### cristo

Staff Emeritus
All immigration into any country should be done in a controlled and deliberate manner. Otherwise people rush to where ever the grass is greener until the grass is all gone.
There is a big difference between the US and a European country. It's a lot easier for the US, for example, to allow immigration up to a point and to then shut the borders as there is no more need for immigrants. The problem with the European system is that anyone from any of the EU countries can move to another country and work there. These are people that, legally, you can never 'stop' from entering, even if there is not enough work for them. Until the EU start acting as one, this problem will only escalate.

Our immigration policy is pretty sick, judging from this one close-to-home example.
But surely you can see that decisions on such issues should be taken from an objective point of view. The fact that this person was a nice human being shouldn't detract from deciding whether or not she was needed in the country. Presumably, the decision was made that she was not needed, and that suitably qualified people were out of work in that area. I guess this happened when she was out of work after her contract expired (you don't need to become a citizen in order to remain in a country indefinitely).

#### Evo

Mentor
There is a big difference between the US and a European country. It's a lot easier for the US, for example, to allow immigration up to a point and to then shut the borders as there is no more need for immigrants. The problem with the European system is that anyone from any of the EU countries can move to another country and work there. These are people that, legally, you can never 'stop' from entering, even if there is not enough work for them. Until the EU start acting as one, this problem will only escalate.
That is equivalent to any one in any state in the US can move to another state at will. It just seems odd because they (European countries) are such distinctly different cultures that have give them their unique identity. I would imagine that someone outside the states would be hard put to expalin the difference in the culture of people of North Dakota and Nebraska. With few exceptions, states don't have a big cultural identity.

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