Illegal immigration really bad in Europe

[gravenewworld]

I never knew it was this bad here in Europe until visiting this time around again. Almost everywhere I went from the Vatican and Spanish steps in Italy to the eiffel tower and versailles in France, I was constantly approached by illegal immigrants trying to sell me junk or knock off stuff. I feel bad for them just trying to make 15 euro a day so they can eat, but at the same time it looks like Paris is transformed into a 3rd world country with tons of cheap street vendors everywhere pushing shopping carts loaded with canisters they burn trash in order to grill things. I really don't see how much longer the EU can keep it up. There are TONS of illegals in Italy and France, the EU problem may be even worse than the one we have in he US.

 

[Astronuc]

The solution would be economic development in underdeveloped nations - and elimination of corruption and oligarchies.

 

[Evo]

I never knew it was this bad here in Europe until visiting this time around again. Almost everywhere I went from the Vatican and Spanish steps in Italy to the eiffel tower and versailles in France, I was constantly approached by illegal immigrants trying to sell me junk or knock off stuff. I feel bad for them just trying to make 15 euro a day so they can eat, but at the same time it looks like Paris is transformed into a 3rd world country with tons of cheap street vendors everywhere pushing shopping carts loaded with canisters they burn trash in order to grill things. I really don't see how much longer the EU can keep it up. There are TONS of illegals in Italy and France, the EU problem may be even worse than the one we have in he US.

I would agree, the EU is becoming an extension of the middle East. I know France has allowed way too many immigrants and they are really suffering. Half of my family lives in France, mostly in Paris. It's bad.

The US is huge, while we have a problem with illegal Mexican immigrants, they don't have a lifestyle that is incompatible with ours. I feel that is one of the main problems in the EU, the immigrants have an incompatible worldview and are unwilling to adapt. IMO, it's destroying Europe.

If Europe doesn't close it doors now, it will disappear as we know it. To be honest, I think too much damage has already been done.

 

[Pengwuino]

Why don't you give them all citizenship like they want to do here? :)

 

[jtbell]

I was constantly approached by illegal immigrants

How do you know they're illegal? Did you ask them for their papers?

 

[Evo]

How do you know they're illegal? Did you ask them for their papers?

Oh, I was talking about legal immigrants. France's laws have been virtually non-existant, and it's like they just woke up and realized that they have a serious problem.

America is a country of immigrants, but the immigrants all had similar basic beliefs. I think that is what makes mixing successful. One culture cannot be diametrically opposed to the core beliefs of another.

 

[gravenewworld]

How do you know they're illegal? Did you ask them for their papers?

Because normal people don't run when the cops come strolling by. It gets really annoying when you are harassed for the 1000th time in less than an hour to buy junk when you are just trying to enjoy sight seeing of a historical monument.

 

[Evo]

Because normal people don't run when the cops come strolling by. It gets really annoying when you are harassed for the 1000th time in less than an hour to buy junk when you are just trying to enjoy sight seeing of a historical monument.

Sicily was almost as bad as Thailand as far as beggars go.

My ex-fiance in Sicily told me to keep walking, don't stop, don't look at them.

When I went to Thailand, we were warned about the beggars/shysters and not to deal with them. They also explained about the tourist scams. If you haven't been to Bangkok, you can't imagine what it's like. Scamming tourists is an industry. I realized that I needed a pair of shorts, so I willingly paid $10 for a fake pair of haut couture designer shorts outside of the hotel. I was going to be riding elephants. Ten dollars was half the annual income there. I was chastised by my tourguide, but I told him I knew they were counterfiet, I just needed some shorts for our trip to the elephant farm.

 

[gravenewworld]

Heheh I actually thoroughly enjoyed Bangkok and love Thailand a lot, but I had cousins as tour guides that kept us safe and sound. Chiang Mai was much better than Bangkok in my opinion. Way less crowded, much cleaner, and not as seedy.

 

[Proton Soup]

Sicily was almost as bad as Thailand as far as beggars go.

My ex-fiance in Sicily told me to keep walking, don't stop, don't look at them.

When I went to Thailand, we were warned about the beggars/shysters and not to deal with them. They also explained about the tourist scams. If you haven't been to Bangkok, you can't imagine what it's like. Scamming tourists is an industry. I realized that I needed a pair of shorts, so I willingly paid $10 for a fake pair of haut couture designer shorts outside of the hotel. I was going to be riding elephants. Ten dollars was half the annual income there. I was chastised by my tourguide, but I told him I knew they were counterfiet, I just needed some shorts for our trip to the elephant farm.

what upset the tour guide? the fact that you bought the shorts, or that he thought you overpaid?

 

[Evo]

Heheh I actually thoroughly enjoyed Bangkok and love Thailand a lot, but I had cousins as tour guides that kept us safe and sound. Chiang Mai was much better than Bangkok in my opinion. Way less crowded, much cleaner, and not as seedy.

We took a private jet up to Chang Mai to visit the silk producers and the elephant training camps.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Because normal people don't run when the cops come strolling by. It gets really annoying when you are harassed for the 1000th time in less than an hour to buy junk when you are just trying to enjoy sight seeing of a historical monument.

Is it legal to peddle without a license in France and Italy?

 

[Ken Natton]

I’m sorry, but I just have to provide a counter to some of what has been said on this thread. Even if it was something that was vaguely possible to do, for Europe to close its boders would be the gravest possible mistake it could make. The likely consequences would be dire. As Astronuc said, the way to stop economic migrancy is to remove the things that drive it which is primarily extreme and grinding poverty proximate to decadent and indulgent wealth. And it simply is not true to suggest that whole cultures are ‘diametrically opposed to the core beliefs of another’. There are groups of fundamentalists whose core beliefs may be diametrically opposed to those of the tolerant majority, but as events of the last few days have demonstrated, fundamentalism crosses cultures as does the desire for a peaceful and untroubled existence and a consequential understanding of the need for tolerance.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Is it legal to peddle without a license in France and Italy?

Nope, and that’s the first reason for running, but it’s hard to tell if they are all illegal immigrants. In Paris, the National Gendarmerie throws any ('suspect') person without proper papers out of the country, but they tend to come back.

But I do know that France has a large population of legal immigrants, which (to some extent) for some reason seem not to 'integrate' in the society (same problem in many European countries).

France is home to the largest Muslim population in Europe (approx 10% of 65 millions).


EDIT: Astronuc & Ken Natton, agree. One dysfunctional Iron Curtain was enough.

 

[Evo]

what upset the tour guide? the fact that you bought the shorts, or that he thought you overpaid?

They didn't want any of us buying from the people selling fake goods. All I had were dresses since there were very strict dress codes at a lot of places we were going, then they sprung the elephant camp on us and I had nothing that I could have reasonably worn and didn't have time to go shopping.

 

[Evo]

Nope, and that’s the first reason for running, but it’s hard to tell if they are all illegal immigrants. In Paris, the National Gendarmerie throws any ('suspect') person without proper papers out of the country, but they tend to come back.

But I do know that France has a large population of legal immigrants, which (to some extent) for some reason seem not to 'integrate' in the society (same problem in many European countries).

France is home to the largest Muslim population in Europe (approx 10% of 65 millions).

France made an error in allowing so many immigrants and now they are a bit too late in doing something about it. Immigration laws need to be in the best interest of the receiving nation.

Those are some scary looking cops. Must be special forces? The violent riots that Paris has been subjected to were horrific.

 

[vici10]

France made an error in allowing so many immigrants

France made an "error" invading these North African And Asian countries. Now people from these former French colonies are coming back to France. Some Europeans do not like it, I guess people of former French colonies also did not like French invasion and europeanisation of their culture.

 

[czelaya]

As an immigrant to the US, and a libertarian, I have to believe that the problem is not with immigration but immigration that is subsidized. If you're an immigrant who wants to work, fine. However, once you introduce entitlements and don't contribute to the tax base and don't respectfully follow the law of the land, then it becomes a problem.

Many Hispanics in my community are appalled by doctrines that both the Democrats and Republican parties have adopted. Many of the immigrants don't have the same respect for the American culture and the dire need for independence.

Case in point, my father came to the US with the notion to work via Job Corp.-legally. After so many years, he had the opportunity to apply for citizenship. During his first years in the US, he was not offered nor did he recognize any form of entitlements. He's main drive was to work.

What's appalling is how I see entitlement programs are already degrading many traditions of the Hispanic culture (namely hard work and independence). My father, with a 3rd grade education, worked 80-100 hours as a carpenter. 30 years later he owns 5 houses and several other properties. This isn't just an isolated incident. ALL of my uncles and aunts followed the same path of working hard and achieved the same financial success. However many of their children have taken the path of receiving government subsidies, and aren't nearly as successful as their parents.

 

[Evo]

France made an "error" invading these North African And Asian countries. Now people from these former French colonies are coming back to France. Some Europeans do not like it, I guess people of former French colonies also did not like French invasion and europeanisation of their culture.

So did England, Belgium, Portugal (mainly in S. America) in the period of "colonization".

France has no obligation to continue to allow mass immigration from North African countries. They have already allowed a disproportionate number of immigrants from these areas and are now suffering the consequences. Like it or not, people do not have a right to choose which country they can live in. If you wish to move to a country, then you must also wish to assimilate into that country and take on their customs.

It is time to remove the PC fears and address the problems, they are not going to go away if they are ignored. Things are coming to a boiling point in Europe.

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/18/135496066/immigration-issues-test-unity-of-the-european-union

 

[Proton Soup]

the problem is that a lot of these people are refugees, fleeing wars and financial turmoil started by americans and europeans.

 

[Ken Natton]

Okay, here’s a different perspective.

As other UK contributors to this website will be aware, Evan Davis is a BBC presenter of news and current affairs whose expertise is in economics. Perhaps his greatest fame beyond the UK is as presenter of Dragon’s Den. In any case, he made a program, not so long back, about the difficulties faced by British employers subject to the possibility of legislation forcing them to favour indigenous Britons over immigrants. To a man, the employers came back forcefully stating that immigrant employees were more reliable, worked harder, were more productive and presented far less trouble. These are employers that were employing immigrants legally, subject to all the same employment protection laws that any employee is in the UK. Davis finished his program by accepting the realities that employers faced but with an appeal that British youngsters must not be forgotten.

The simple reality is that the modern prosperity of both France and Britain, not to mention the cultural vibrancy, sporting competitiveness and general energy, owe huge amounts to their diverse immigrant communities. It is total nonsense to suggest that historically based guilty feelings generate any sense of obligation to the peoples of formerly colonised nations. The obligations to which the British and French peoples are subject are exactly the same as the persons of every other nation the world over.

And if you want to find the true source of racial and cultural difficulties in Britain and France, it is the kind of gross ignorance too much in evidence on this thread.,

 

[JesseC]

I never knew it was this bad here in Europe until visiting this time around again. Almost everywhere I went from the Vatican and Spanish steps in Italy to the eiffel tower and versailles in France, I was constantly approached by illegal immigrants trying to sell me junk or knock off stuff. I feel bad for them just trying to make 15 euro a day so they can eat, but at the same time it looks like Paris is transformed into a 3rd world country with tons of cheap street vendors everywhere pushing shopping carts loaded with canisters they burn trash in order to grill things. I really don't see how much longer the EU can keep it up. There are TONS of illegals in Italy and France, the EU problem may be even worse than the one we have in he US.

Has to be one of the most snobby things I've ever read.

Be bloody thankful you come from a rich developed nation and are able to make vacations half way across the world!

The vast majority of the 7 billion people on this planet probably live a much harder life than you.

 

[Evo]

To all, please stay on the topic of either illegal/legal immigration in the current population. Off topic posts will be deleted.

If you disagree with someone's viewpoint, then make a rational case for yours and do not attack those members you disagree with. Please read the P&WA guidelines before you post, as well as the global guidelines.

I haven't been giving infractions for guideline violations up to this point, going forward, violations will be given infractions.

If you can't remain civil, please do not post.

 

[Proton Soup]

well, here's news story that addresses part of the problem

http://www.france24.com/en/20110329...ugees-centre-overflows-thousands-north-africa

they're not all ending up in internment camps, though

 

[Evo]

well, here's news story that addresses part of the problem

http://www.france24.com/en/20110329...ugees-centre-overflows-thousands-north-africa

they're not all ending up in internment camps, though

Thanks, that is the forerunner to the article I posted about the trains from Italy being blocked.

Apparently Italy doesn't want these refugees so they started dumping them on trains to France, without discussing it. France was not prepared to handle the refugees. It's like these countries are playing childish games of "hot potato" with these people.

When boats of Cuban refugees arrive in Florida, the people are returned to Cuba, they aren't sent to Canada.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/03/world/us-will-return-refugees-to-cuba-in-policy-switch.html

 

[JesseC]

@Evo @gravenewworld

Perhaps a more measured response on my part would look like this,

1) The OP, having visited only capital cities is going to get a very biased sample of the general proportion of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, in a country. I am amazed that he/she uses this sample to justify claims that the immigration problem in the EU must therefore be 'bad'. Especially given that 'bad' is an extremely vague term.

2) The OP claims that paris, at times, looks to have been transformed into a 3rd world country. It makes me wonder how many third world countries OP has visited before, I would be interested to know.

My own views on the subject would be on the lines of:

Immigration is a very important issue, BUT the debate is unfortunately guided by a press that like to write stories that make people angry and scared of immigrants. The government who want to win more votes seeming 'tough on immigration' in the same way they like to be 'tough on crime'.

Perhaps we should feel more sympathy and try to empathise with those who would risk their lives leaving their own country to seek a better life. Rather than look down on them as some annoyance getting in our way.

 

[Evo]

@Evo @gravenewworld

Perhaps a more measured response on my part would look like this,

1) The OP, having visited only capital cities is going to get a very biased sample of the general proportion of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, in a country. I am amazed that he/she uses this sample to justify claims that the immigration problem in the EU must therefore be 'bad'. Especially given that 'bad' is an extremely vague term.

2) The OP claims that paris, at times, looks to have been transformed into a 3rd world country. It makes me wonder how many third world countries OP has visited before, I would be interested to know.

My own views on the subject would be on the lines of:

Immigration is a very important issue, BUT the debate is unfortunately guided by a press that like to write stories that make people angry and scared of immigrants. The government who want to win more votes seeming 'tough on immigration' in the same way they like to be 'tough on crime'.

Perhaps we should feel more sympathy and try to empathise with those who would risk their lives leaving their own country to seek a better life. Rather than look down on them as some annoyance getting in our way.

I'm curious, do you live in Paris or have you been there? Parts of Paris, for example where the violent rioting took place, is a good example.

Of course we in the US are having similar problems. This exerpt is wrongly titled "France's Immigrant Problem—and Ours", after reading it, it is actually the the US's problem with Mexican immigrants, with a couple of comments on France's problems.

It's from 2006 and the stats are outdated, but over all I think it explains the immigrant's dilema.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.999/article_detail.asp

While I feel for the people, I am also realistic in knowing that these problems won't be fixed by putting bandaids over the problem and that other countries cannot continue to take these people in. The root cause of these people leaving their home countries needs to be fixed. Unfortunately, that is also unlikely.

People's attitudes can be changed, years ago I was arguing in favor of Mexican immigrants, saying they were harder workers and just honest people trying to create a better life for themselves and their families, and if they were willing to take the low paying jobs that American's didnt want, that it was our own fault. I'm now convinced of how naive I was.

 

[pftest]

There has to be a limit to immigration, Europe simply doesn't have unlimited resources to support everyone. It doesn't help when many immigrants have a hateful belief system either.

 

[WhoWee]

I never knew it was this bad here in Europe until visiting this time around again. Almost everywhere I went from the Vatican and Spanish steps in Italy to the eiffel tower and versailles in France, I was constantly approached by illegal immigrants trying to sell me junk or knock off stuff. I feel bad for them just trying to make 15 euro a day so they can eat, but at the same time it looks like Paris is transformed into a 3rd world country with tons of cheap street vendors everywhere pushing shopping carts loaded with canisters they burn trash in order to grill things. I really don't see how much longer the EU can keep it up. There are TONS of illegals in Italy and France, the EU problem may be even worse than the one we have in he US.

Doesn't the French welfare state extend to these people - do they have medical care?

 

[WhoWee]

They didn't want any of us buying from the people selling fake goods. All I had were dresses since there were very strict dress codes at a lot of places we were going, then they sprung the elephant camp on us and I had nothing that I could have reasonably worn and didn't have time to go shopping.

Wouldn't a nice polka-dot summer dress be ideal for a brisk elephant ride through the countryside?