Implication of Goedel's theorems on physics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of Gödel's theorems on the foundations of physics, particularly the question of whether physics can be proven to be non-contradictory given its reliance on mathematics. Participants explore the relationship between mathematical proof, empirical evidence, and the nature of scientific understanding.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that Gödel's theorem suggests that it is impossible to prove the non-contradiction of mathematics, raising questions about the foundations of physics, which relies on mathematics.
  • Others argue that empirical evidence from technology and experiments demonstrates that our understanding of physics is robust, suggesting that contradictions would reveal themselves through practical applications.
  • A participant emphasizes that the proof of physics' non-contradiction should come from experimental validation rather than theoretical assertions.
  • Some express skepticism about the necessity of proving physics' non-contradiction, suggesting that a pragmatic approach is sufficient as long as current models work effectively.
  • One participant contends that Gödel's theorem, which pertains to axiomatic systems, does not apply to empirical sciences like physics in a meaningful way.
  • Another participant reflects on the iterative nature of building scientific knowledge, acknowledging that revisions may be necessary as new discoveries are made.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether Gödel's theorems have significant implications for physics. Multiple competing views are presented regarding the relationship between mathematics, proof, and empirical science.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in the application of Gödel's theorem to empirical sciences, while others question the necessity of proving non-contradiction in physics. The discussion remains open-ended with various assumptions and interpretations expressed.

aman
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I am a graduated mathematician.

Do you know that Kurt Godel proofed that it is not possible to proof that math is not noncontradiction?
Physicist and a lot of other sciences are based od math.
So, how can you proof that whole physics' is noncontradiction?You just believe in it as someone in God?
 
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aman said:
So, how can you proof that whole physics' is noncontradiction?
You are currently using an artificial computing machine based on quantum theory and probably equipped with wireless communication technology that requires special relativity to understand (and general relativity if it has GPS). You have evidence literally in front of you that our understanding of the world is very, very good. If there's some obscure flaw in the logic of our theoretical models it'll eventually out itself when we try to build something and get contradictory results.
 
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aman said:
So, how can you proof that whole physics' is noncontradiction?
By experiment.

In any case, I think your description above is a mischaracterization of his theorem. But for a correct characterization the answer to your question is still experiment.
 
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aman said:
You just believe in it as someone in God?
All Gods believe in mathematics.
 
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aman said:
So, how can you proof that whole physics' is noncontradiction?
I do not care because we may not be able to know whole physics, only little by little forever.
 
One builds the edifice of Physics brick by brick and occasionally one finds that a section here or there needs to be rebuilt. Perhaps we will get to the end and perhaps we will discover the last brick does not fit. What to do?
 
aman said:
So, how can you proof that whole physics' is noncontradiction?
Goedel's theorem is about axiomatic systems. Physics and other empirical sciences are not axiomatic systems so the theorem does not apply in any useful way.
 
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I see no need to show that Physics is noncontradiction any more than my assumption that my car will get me from a to b tomorrow.
We have a present model for Physics that works (predicts) things more than adequately.
It’s not necessary to believe that there is any fundamental truth about the World so no god-like approach is necessary. We can be pragmatic.
 
aman said:
Do you know that Kurt Godel proofed that it is not possible to proof that math is not noncontradiction?
Physicist and a lot of other sciences are based od math.
So, how can you proof that whole physics' is noncontradiction?
I have not read the article "Goedel and Physics" by John Barrow, I just know that it exists.

https://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0612253
 
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