Implications of a new 17 Mev vector boson on Higgs, SUSY

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  • #51
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Apart from Feng et al and you I don't see anyone seeing that reason.Sorry, mixed protons and neutrons. Make its coupling to neutrons stronger then.It does not. The theorists are exploring "what if". They hope to be right, but that is a different statement.
“It would be crazy not to do another experiment to check this result,” Rouven Essig, a theoretical physicist at Stony Brook University told Nature News. “Nature has surprised us before!”

http://qz.com/759045/fifth-force-ne...d-be-a-dark-photon/?utm_source=YPL&yptr=yahoo

Rouven Essiq is at least 1 other physicist other than Feng et al. Other news articles quote other particle physicists who think it is worth researching and experimenting.


Lubos Motl is one string theorists who regards string theory as truth. Other string theorists from Michio Kaku to Brian Greene to Ed Witten to Stephen Hawking promote string theory, so its definitely past a what-if for them.
 
  • #52
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"Another experiment to check this result" is not the same as "a different experiment to look for a particle Feng et al think to see. Repeat the experiment, maybe with slightly different experimental setups, to see where the odd result comes from.

Lubos Motl has a strong opinion on everything. Other scientists promote string theory as interesting concept.
 
  • #53
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"Another experiment to check this result" is not the same as "a different experiment to look for a particle Feng et al think to see. Repeat the experiment, maybe with slightly different experimental setups, to see where the odd result comes from.

Lubos Motl has a strong opinion on everything. Other scientists promote string theory as interesting concept.
my original statement about Feng xboson is "Another experiment to check this result". see beginning of thread.

i agree with

“If it’s real, it needs to be studied in gory detail,” said David McKeen, a theoretical particle physicist at the University of Washington who was not involved in the study.

“It would be crazy not to do another experiment to check this result,” Rouven Essig, a theoretical physicist at Stony Brook University told Nature News. “Nature has surprised us before!”

i never stated that this xboson exists based solely on the Hungarian team results, or that there is any proof for it. Only that it is worth researching, and your statement about finding oil in your back yard seems to suggest otherwise, that it is not even worth doing another experiment.

i think the statements many string theorists have made about their research goes a little more than just a what-if. Witten was asked why he believes so strongly in string theory and he replied it correctly predicts black hole entropy.
 
  • #54
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If it’s real, it needs to be studied in gory detail,
Note the "if". Everything real beyond the standard model needs to be studied in detail.
Only that it is worth researching, and your statement about finding oil in your back yard seems to suggest otherwise, that it is not even worth doing another experiment.
Do another experiment, but the most likely result (if any) is finding the error the previous experiment had.
 
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  • #55
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Note the "if". Everything real beyond the standard model needs to be studied in detail.
Do another experiment, but the most likely result (if any) is finding the error the previous experiment had.
i agree -if you read the paper arXiv:1608.03591 on page 31 there are actually about dozen or so experiments that were intended to find dark photons, w' z' bosons, already planned several years back that can find this such as MIT's Lightdark experiment, heavy photon seach, PADME, BES 3, BarBar, LHCb, MU3E, VEPP3, MESA and will be online in the next year or so. Since Feng published the paper in Aug 2016, he is stating these physicists experimental exactly what to look for in addition to dark photons.
 
  • #56
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If the fifth force is a gauge force like the three in the Standard Model, then the symmetry of the Standard Model needs to be extended. That is, the three forces in the Standard Model are mixed from the three symmetries of the Standard Model, SU(3), SU(2) and U(1). To add a 4th force, you need to look for a symmetry that contains SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) but has 4 terms instead of 3. (Or maybe 5 terms if you want to add gravity as the 5th force.) Then you need to assign four quantum numbers to the various Standard Model elementary particles instead of the usual three.

Example: Suppose that we replace SU(3) with SU(3)xSU(3). To keep them straight, call them SU(3)_A x SU(3)_B. The idea is that these are a pair that is similar to how SU(2) x U(1) gives the electroweak force.

So make SU(3)_A the up quark and SU(3)_B the down quark. Then the representations for the up quark are 3 and 1 while the down quark's representations are 1 and 3. The other fermions are all singlets with respect to both SU(3)s.

Both quarks feel the same strong force so the strong force must be a mixture of the two SU(3) gauge forces. This sort of mixture is done with an angle like the Weinberg angle that mixes the SU(2) and U(1) electroweak gauge bosons to give the electric and weak forces. But since the two SU(3) are the same symmetry type, you expect the two mixtures to be something more natural:
SU(3)_A + SU(3)_B and
SU(3)_A - SU(3)_B.
Then the first mixture, SU(3)_A+SU(3)_B is the strong force while the other is the fifth force.
Feng proposes it is a fifth gauge force, an x-boson.

what are the ramifications of extending the symmetry of SM, on GUT, higgs stability and SUSY-extension ?
 
  • #57
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Light gauge boson in rare K decay
Chuan-Hung Chen, Takaaki Nomura
(Submitted on 8 Aug 2016)
The inconsistent conclusions for a light gauge boson X production in the K−→π−X exist in the literature. It is found that the process can be generated by the tree-level W-boson annihilation and loop-induced s→dX. We find that it strongly depends on the SU(3) limit or the unique gauge coupling to the quarks, whether the K−→π−X decay, which is from the W-boson annihilation, is suppressed by m2XϵX⋅pK; however, no such suppression is found via the loop-induced s→dX. The constraints on the relevant couplings are studied.
Comments: 10 pages, 4 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph); High Energy Physics - Experiment (hep-ex)
Report number: KIAS-P16055
Cite as: arXiv:1608.02311 [hep-ph]

The new interaction suggested by the anomalous 8Be transition sets a rigorous constraint on the mass range of dark matter
Lian-Bao Jia, Xue-Qian Li
(Submitted on 18 Aug 2016)
The WIMPs are considered one of the most favorable dark matter (DM) candidates, but as the upper bound on the interaction between DM and standard model (SM) particles obtained by the upgraded facilities for direct detection of DM gets lower and lower. Researchers turn their attention to search for less massive DM candidates, i.e. light dark matter of MeV scale. The recently measured anomalous transition in 8Be suggests that there exists a vectorial boson which may mediate the interaction between DM and SM particles. Based on this scenario, we combine the relevant cosmological data to constrain the mass range of DM, and have found that there exists a model parameter space where the requirements are satisfied, a range of 10.4≲mϕ≲16.7 MeV for scalar DM, and 13.6≲mV≲16.7 MeV for vectorial DM is demanded. Then a possibility of directly detecting such light DM particles at the earth detector via the DM-electron scattering is briefly studied in this framework.
Comments: 13 Pages, 7 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph); Cosmology and Nongalactic Astrophysics (astro-ph.CO)
Cite as: arXiv:1608.05443 [hep-ph]
 
  • #60
ohwilleke
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I am with the skeptics.
 
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  • #61
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I am with the skeptics.
we'll have to revisit this thread in 5 years to see what experiments say.
 
  • #62
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we'll have to revisit this thread in 5 years to see what experiments say.
Re-visit all threads from 2011. Or every other year in the past 50 years. How many new interactions have been found? Do you see a pattern?
 
  • #63
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Re-visit all threads from 2011. Or every other year in the past 50 years. How many new interactions have been found? Do you see a pattern?
um what other threads pf are about new fundamental interactions carried by gauge bosons???
 
  • #64
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um what other threads pf are about new fundamental interactions carried by gauge bosons???
Where do I start?
The existence of an intermediate range coupling to the baryon number or hypercharge of the materials was confirmed.
1986, disproven by much more precise experiments
The results revealed an anomalous gravity gradient.
1989, probably model issues with the rock distribution
the presence of Dark Matter particles in the galactic halo is supported at 8.2 σ
2008, multiple other experiments have now a 100-fold sensitivity and see nothing

The observed distribution has an excess in the 120-160 GeV/c^2 mass range which is not described by current theoretical predictions within the statistical and systematic uncertainties.
2011, turned out to be an underestimated systematic uncertainty

In terms of signs of new particles in general: Various tetraquark and pentaquark "discoveries" until they finally got found by LHCb. Including my favorite BS one (doesn't exist).

If these deviations are all related to the two-body decay of an X -boson, this observation implies plural X -bosons. An analysis of all angular spectra with a boson search program, yields a pandemonium of more than ten candidate bosons.
2006, de Boer
Disproved with an improved detector by de Boer later.
By postulating the emission of a neutral particle with a mass of 12 (2.5) MeV /c 2 the structure of the angular correlation can be described.
2008
Bonus: The author list is nearly the same as for the most recent claim, and they worked with de Boer from above. Disproved by the next in the list:
a neutral isoscalar particle with a mass of 13.45(30) MeV /c 2 and J π = 1 + was created with a confidence level of 3 σ
2012
Same team, disproving their previous claim and finding a new particle in the process, which then got disproved by their most recent publication. I see a certain pattern...


That is just from memory and what a quick Google search revealed. History is full of "discoveries" that went away with better experiments.
 
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  • #65
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is it possible the Higgs is composite, ew is broken dynamically, and this boson is the force that binds new fermions charged under the interaction to form the higgs and dark matter?
 
  • #66
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Do you have a publication suggesting anything like that?
 
  • #67
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Do you have a publication suggesting anything like that?
i posted a paper suggesting that this boson could be associated with a dark sector that includes dark matter

The Protophobic Light Vector Boson as a Mediator to the Dark Sector
Teppei Kitahara, Yasuhiro Yamamoto
(Submitted on 6 Sep 2016)
Observation of a protophobic 16.7 MeV vector boson has been reported by a 8Be nuclear transition experiment. Such a new particle could mediate between the Standard Model and a dark sector which includes the dark matter. In this Letter, we show some simple models which satisfy the thermal relic abundance under the current experimental bounds from the direct and the indirect detections. In a model, it is found that an appropriate self-scattering cross section to solve the small scale structure puzzles can be achieved.
Comments: 6 pages, 7 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph)
Report number: OU-HET-909, TTP16-036
Cite as: arXiv:1609.01605 [hep-ph]

The new interaction suggested by the anomalous 8Be transition sets a rigorous constraint on the mass range of dark matter
Lian-Bao Jia, Xue-Qian Li
(Submitted on 18 Aug 2016)
The WIMPs are considered one of the most favorable dark matter (DM) candidates, but as the upper bound on the interaction between DM and standard model (SM) particles obtained by the upgraded facilities for direct detection of DM gets lower and lower. Researchers turn their attention to search for less massive DM candidates, i.e. light dark matter of MeV scale. The recently measured anomalous transition in 8Be suggests that there exists a vectorial boson which may mediate the interaction between DM and SM particles. Based on this scenario, we combine the relevant cosmological data to constrain the mass range of DM, and have found that there exists a model parameter space where the requirements are satisfied, a range of 10.4≲mϕ≲16.7 MeV for scalar DM, and 13.6≲mV≲16.7 MeV for vectorial DM is demanded. Then a possibility of directly detecting such light DM particles at the earth detector via the DM-electron scattering is briefly studied in this framework.
Comments: 13 Pages, 7 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph); Cosmology and Nongalactic Astrophysics (astro-ph.CO)
Cite as: arXiv:1608.05443 [hep-ph]



lhc latest results susy was not found and susy may not be the answer to the hierarchy problem

re: higgs
technihiggs composite higgs papers all require a new force binding new fermions to create higgs as a goldstone boson

1. What is “Composite Higgs”?
pcts.princeton.edu/pcts/.../FY14.../Peskin-March4-CompositeHiggs-1.pdf
But, the Standard Model refuses to answer our questions: Why is electroweak symmetry broken ? Can we calculate the Higgs mass, or the Higgs potential ?
Minimal Composite Higgs Models at the LHC
Marcela Carena, Leandro Da Rold, Eduardo Ponton
(Submitted on 12 Feb 2014 (v1), last revised 5 Mar 2014 (this version, v2))
We consider composite Higgs models where the Higgs is a pseudo-Nambu Goldstone boson arising from the spontaneous breaking of an approximate global symmetry by some underlying strong dynamics. We focus on the SO(5) -> SO(4) symmetry breaking pattern, assuming the partial compositeness paradigm. We study the consequences on Higgs physics of the fermionic representations produced by the strong dynamics, that mix with the Standard Model (SM) degrees of freedom. We consider models based on the lowest-dimensional representations of SO(5) that allow for the custodial protection of the Z -> b b coupling, i.e. the 5, 10 and 14. We find a generic suppression of the gluon fusion process, while the Higgs branching fractions can be enhanced or suppressed compared to the SM. Interestingly, a precise measurement of the Higgs boson couplings can distinguish between different realizations in the fermionic sector, thus providing crucial information about the nature of the UV dynamics.
Comments: 55 pages, 18 figures, References added
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph)
DOI: 10.1007/JHEP06(2014)159
Cite as: arXiv:1402.2987 [hep-ph]

The Composite Nambu-Goldstone Higgs
Giuliano Panico, Andrea Wulzer
(Submitted on 5 Jun 2015 (v1), last revised 11 Nov 2015 (this version, v2))
The composite Higgs scenario, in which the Higgs emerges as a composite pseudo-Nambu-Goldstone boson, is extensively reviewed in these Notes. The material is presented in a pedagogical fashion, with great emphasis on the conceptual and technical foundations of the construction. A comprehensive summary of the flavor, collider and electroweak precision phenomenology is also presented.
Comments: Monograph prepared for Springer Lecture Notes in Physics; v2: typos corrected, published version
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph)
DOI: 10.1007/978-3-319-22617-0
Report number: DFPD-2015TH9
Cite as: arXiv:1506.01961 [hep-ph]
The Technicolor Higgs in the Light of LHC Data
Alexander Belyaev, Matthew S. Brown, Roshan Foadi, Mads T. Frandsen
(Submitted on 9 Sep 2013)
We consider scenarios in which the 125 GeV resonance observed at the Large Hadron Collider is a Technicolor (TC) isosinglet scalar, the TC Higgs. By comparison with quantum chromodynamics, we argue that the couplings of the TC Higgs to the massive weak bosons are very close to the Standard Model (SM) values. The couplings to photons and gluons are model-dependent, but close to the SM values in several TC theories. The couplings of the TC Higgs to SM fermions are due to interactions beyond TC, such as Extended Technicolor: if such interactions successfully generate mass for the SM fermions, we argue that the couplings of the latter to the TC Higgs are also SM-like.
We suggest a generic parameterization of the TC Higgs interactions with SM particles that accommodates a large class of TC models, and we perform a fit of these parameters to the Higgs LHC data. The fit reveals regions of parameter space where the form factors are of order unity and consistent with data at the 95% CL, in agreement with expectations in TC theories. This indicates that the discovered Higgs boson is consistent with the TC Higgs hypothesis for several TC theories.
Comments: 26 pages, 8 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph)
DOI: http://arxiv.org/ct?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10%252E1103%2FPhysRevD%252E90%252E035012&v=fce83dc6 [Broken]
Cite as: arXiv:1309.2097 [hep-ph]
(or arXiv:1309.2097v1 [hep-ph] for this version)
 
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  • #68
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Do you have a publication suggesting anything like that?
The answer is "no", then?
 
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  • #69
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The answer is "no", then?
publications i listed suggest there is a new short ranged force binding new fermions to form the higgs

implication of feng's boson mediates a new short ranged force and implies new fermions
 
  • #70
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You listed some publications that have a few keywords in common with your previous post. That is not a publication suggesting what you asked about.
 
  • #71
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You listed some publications that have a few keywords in common with your previous post. That is not a publication suggesting what you asked about.
what i am asking is whether this hypothetical 16.7 mev boson described by Feng could be harmonized with the new force described by composite higgs theories. LHC did not find any evidence of natural SUSY so perhaps the higgs is a composite entity
 
  • #72
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Re-visit all threads from 2011. Or every other year in the past 50 years. How many new interactions have been found? Do you see a pattern?
what is your opinion of extensions of the SM involving W' and Z' extra copy of SU(2) or U(1) gauge group as part of the little Higgs models, ultimate purpose is to explain higgs stability without supersymmetry?
do you think it is well motivated and plausible?

i ask b/c another alternative explanation is that 16.7 mev is a Z' boson and not a protophobic boson.

The 17 MeV Anomaly in Beryllium Decays and U(1) Portal to Dark Matter
Chian-Shu Chen, Guey-Lin Lin, Yen-Hsun Lin, Fanrong Xu
(Submitted on 23 Sep 2016)
The experiment of Krasznahorkay \textit{et al} observed the transition of a 8Be excited state to its ground state and accompanied by an emission of e+e− pair with 17 MeV invariant mass. This 6.8σ anomaly can be fitted by a new light gauge boson. We consider the new particle as a U(1) gauge boson, Z′, which plays as a portal linking dark sector and visible sector. In particular, we study the new U(1) gauge symmetry as a hidden or non-hidden group separately. The generic hidden U(1) model, referred to as dark Z model, is excluded by imposing various experimental constraints. On the other hand, a non-hidden Z′ is allowed due to additional interactions between Z′ and Standard Model fermions. We also study the implication of the dark matter direct search on such a scenario. We found the search for the DM-nucleon scattering excludes the range of DM mass above 500 MeV. However, the DM-electron scattering for MeV-scale DM is still allowed by current constraints for non-hidden U(1) models. It is possible to test the underlying U(1) portal model by the future Si and Ge detectors with 5e− threshold charges.
Comments: 13 pages, 3 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph)
Cite as: arXiv:1609.07198 [hep-ph]

these papers also try to connect anomaly with dark matter so there's that.

another explanation is a light axion like pseudoscalar

Possible Explanation of the Electron Positron Anomaly at 17 MeV in 8Be Transitions Through a Light Pseudoscalar
Ulrich Ellwanger, Stefano Moretti
(Submitted on 6 Sep 2016)
We estimate the values of Yukawa couplings of a light pseudoscalar A with a mass of about 17 MeV, which would explain the 8Be anomaly observed in the Atomki pair spectrometer experiment. The resulting couplings of A to up and down type quarks are about 0.3 times the coupling of the standard Higgs boson. Then constraints from K and B decays require that loop contributions to flavour changing vertices cancel at least at the 10% level. Constraints from beam dump experiments require the coupling of A to electrons to be larger than about 4 times the coupling of the standard Higgs boson, leading to a short enough A life time consistent with an explanation of the anomaly.
Comments: 12 pages, no figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph)
Report number: LPT Orsay 16-54
Cite as: arXiv:1609.01669 [hep-ph]

reminds me of the 500+ papers on the 750 gev diphoton bump

the 16.7 mev bump could be a protophobic gauge boson mediating a new force, but it could also be evidence of Z' boson present in little higgs and a axion like pseudoscalar

these 3 explanations also offer possible explanations with dark matter.

presumably an ep collider would offer different results for these various explanations.
 
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  • #73
ohwilleke
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The overwhelmingly more likely possibility is that 8Be decays can be explained without BSM physics of any kind. First principles models of atomic nuclei that are even moderately complex, like 8Be,just don't exist. It is far more likely that there is some error in the predicted value due to failure to consider some SM factor that is present in 8Be than it is that BSM physics are present. The poor track record of the investigators suggesting the alternatives makes that particularly likely to be the case.
 
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  • #74
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The overwhelmingly more likely possibility is that 8Be decays can be explained without BSM physics of any kind. First principles models of atomic nuclei that are even moderately complex, like 8Be,just don't exist. It is far more likely that there is some error in the predicted value due to failure to consider some SM factor that is present in 8Be than it is that BSM physics are present. The poor track record of the investigators suggesting the alternatives makes that particularly likely to be the case.

true enough. not really all that different from the 750 diphoton bump lhc saw.

do u have an opinion on little higgs and w' z' bosons - independent of this?
 
  • #75
ohwilleke
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Little Higgs does not look promising as we should start seeing phenomenological effects of it by now, and we don't. https://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-ph/0502182v1.pdf

Per PDG the W' exclusion is 3.2 TeV (about 40 times the W boson mass) and the Z' exclusion is 2.9 TeV (about 37 times the Z boson mass)
http://pdglive.lbl.gov/Particle.action?node=S056 (subject in each case to assumptions about their properties). Equally important, we don't have a compelling need for either a W' or a Z' to explain anything. The SM is complete and healthy mathematically to 10^15 GeV+
 
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