Inequality: $$-\frac{22}{24}h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}\leq 0$$

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the validity of certain inequalities involving the fourth derivative of a function, denoted as \( f^{(4)} \). Participants explore the implications of these inequalities in the context of Taylor expansions and error bounds related to finite difference approximations of derivatives. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and technical explanations.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the inequality \( |-\frac{5}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_1)+\frac{64}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_2)-\frac{81}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_3)| \leq \frac{22}{24}h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty} \) holds, suggesting that the signs of \( f^{(4)}(x_1) \), \( f^{(4)}(x_2) \), and \( f^{(4)}(x_3) \) may differ.
  • Another participant proposes that without knowing the signs of \( f^{(4)}(x_1) \), \( f^{(4)}(x_2) \), and \( f^{(4)}(x_3) \), the best estimate for the left-hand side of the inequality is \( \frac{150}{24}h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty} \).
  • A participant describes using Taylor expansions for \( f(x+h) \), \( f(x+2h) \), and \( f(x+3h) \) to derive the remainders and questions whether the signs of these remainders are consistent.
  • Another participant aims to show that \( |\delta_{h,r}f(x)- f''(x)| \leq \frac{11}{12} h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty} \) and provides a detailed derivation involving Taylor expansions, ultimately questioning the correctness of their approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the inequalities presented. There is no consensus on whether the original inequality holds, as some participants highlight potential issues with sign consistency while others provide alternative estimates. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the correctness of the proposed inequalities.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the dependence on the signs of the fourth derivatives at specific points, which introduces uncertainty into the claims made. The discussion also involves assumptions related to the behavior of the function and its derivatives, which may not be universally applicable.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

Does the following inequality hold?

$$|-\frac{5}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_1)+\frac{64}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_2)-\frac{81}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_3)| \\ \leq |-\frac{5}{24}h^2+\frac{64}{24}h^2-\frac{81}{24}h^2|\max_x |f^{(4)}(x)| \\ = |-\frac{22}{24}h^2| ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}= \frac{22}{24}h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}$$

where $h>0$
 
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mathmari said:
Hey! :o

Does the following inequality hold?

$$|-\frac{5}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_1)+\frac{64}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_2)-\frac{81}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_3)| \\ \leq |-\frac{5}{24}h^2+\frac{64}{24}h^2-\frac{81}{24}h^2|\max_x |f^{(4)}(x)| \\ = |-\frac{22}{24}h^2| ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}= \frac{22}{24}h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}$$

where $h>0$
No, because $f^{(4)}(x_2)$ might have a different sign from $f^{(4)}(x_1)$ and $f^{(4)}(x_3)$. Unless you know that $f^{(4)}(x_1)$, $f^{(4)}(x_2)$ and $f^{(4)}(x_3)$ all have the same sign, the best you can say is that $$\left|-\frac{5}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_1)+\frac{64}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_2)-\frac{81}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_3)\right| \leqslant \left(\frac5{24} + \frac{64}{24} + \frac{81}{24}\right)h^2\|f^{(4)}\|_{\infty} = \frac{150}{24}h^2\|f^{(4)}\|_{\infty}.$$
 
I used the Taylor expansion three times, once for $f(x+h)$, once for $f(x+2h)$ and once for $f(x+3h)$ and the $f(x_1), f(x_2), f(x_3)$ of the above expression are the remainders of each expansion. Do we know if they have all the same sign?
 
I want to show that $$|\delta_{h,r}f(x)- f''(x)| \leq \frac{11}{12} h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}$$ where $$\delta_{h,r}f(x)=\frac{1}{h^2} (2f(x)-5f(x+h)+4f(x+2h)-f(x+3h))$$

I applied the Taylor expanson at $f(x+h)$, $f(x+2h)$ and $f(x+3h)$ and $f(x_1), f(x_2), f(x_3)$ are the corresponding remainder of each expansion.

$$f(x+h)=f(x)+h f'(x)+\frac{h^2}{2} f''(x)+\frac{h^3}{6} f'''(x)+\frac{h^4}{24} f^{(4)}(x_1), x_1 \in (x,x+h)$$

$$f(x+2h)=f(x)+2hf'(x)+2h^2 f''(x)+\frac{4}{3} h^3 f'''(x)+\frac{16}{24}f^{(4)}(x_2), x_2 \in (x,x+2h)$$

$$f(x+3h)=f(x)+3hf'(x)+\frac{9}{2}h^2 f''(x)+\frac{27}{6}h^3 f'''(x)+\frac{81}{24} h^4 f^{(4)}(x_3), x_3 \in (x,x+3h)$$Substituting at $$\delta_{h,r}f(x)=\frac{1}{h^2} (2f(x)-5f(x+h)+4f(x+2h)-f(x+3h))$$ we get
$$\delta_{h,r}=f''(x)+\frac{h^2}{24}(64 f^{(4)}(x_2)-5f^{(4)}(x_1)-81 f^{(4)}(x_3))$$

Since $$|-\frac{5}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_1)+\frac{64}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_2)-\frac{81}{24}h^2f^{(4)}(x_3)| \\ \leq |-\frac{5}{24}h^2+\frac{64}{24}h^2-\frac{81}{24}h^2|\max_x |f^{(4)}(x)| \\ = |-\frac{22}{24}h^2| ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}= \frac{22}{24}h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}$$
we have

$$|\delta_{h,r}f(x)- f''(x)| \leq \frac{11}{12} h^2 ||f^{(4)}||_{\infty}$$

($h>0$)

Is this correct? Is there somewhere a mistake?
 

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