nautica
Agreed, it is impossible for unsaturated fats to stack neatly, which would allow them to build up.
Nautica
Nautica
Is a vegan diet healthy if you get enough plant protein?
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Adrian
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The body produces cholesterol from Acetyl-CoA, which in turn can be derived both from fats and carbohydrates.
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/hmgcoa.html
http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/cholesterol.html
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem/MBWeb/mb2/part1/cholesterol.htm
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/hmgcoa.html
http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/cholesterol.html
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem/MBWeb/mb2/part1/cholesterol.htm
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Galatea
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I'm vegan and was a vegetarian prior to that. So far, I've not encountered any major health problems though I did get somewhat anemic before reading up on iron intake.
With any major change in diet, you have to take certain things into account and it sometimes takes time to figure things out.
As a menstruating female, I have to worry about iron almost constantly. Needless to say, I eat a lot of spinach and broccoli. :) Iron doesn't synthesize well, if at all, from vitamins.
B12 is definitely a major concern for vegans. Luckily, it can be stored in the body for quite a while so if you switch from an omnivorous diet (that you've had for a while), chances are, you won't have to worry about your B12 levels for quite a while - months usually, sometimes up to a year depending on how much meat you were eating previously. There are a lot of vegan supplements and B12 does well in supplement format. The most common is a sublingual supplement taken once every few weeks or once a month. I know people who get B12 shots once every 4 months or so.
I'm always asked "How do you get enough protein?" This is by far one of the silliest questions I've come across. There is a ton of protein in soy products (tofu, tempeh, seitan etc.) and these are generally staples in a vegan/vegetarian diet. Most people only need about 50 grams/day. Women need less than men. I think men generally require about 50-60, whereas women need maybe 40-60.
As far as cholesterol is concerned, I think it's safe to say most vegans get HDL from various sources (i.e. peanut butter.)
Anyhow, the main point is this: Veganism is like any other method of eating. You'll only be healthy if you do it right and sometimes more care has to be taken for a couple of nutrients (iron and B12, mostly.)
With any major change in diet, you have to take certain things into account and it sometimes takes time to figure things out.
As a menstruating female, I have to worry about iron almost constantly. Needless to say, I eat a lot of spinach and broccoli. :) Iron doesn't synthesize well, if at all, from vitamins.
B12 is definitely a major concern for vegans. Luckily, it can be stored in the body for quite a while so if you switch from an omnivorous diet (that you've had for a while), chances are, you won't have to worry about your B12 levels for quite a while - months usually, sometimes up to a year depending on how much meat you were eating previously. There are a lot of vegan supplements and B12 does well in supplement format. The most common is a sublingual supplement taken once every few weeks or once a month. I know people who get B12 shots once every 4 months or so.
I'm always asked "How do you get enough protein?" This is by far one of the silliest questions I've come across. There is a ton of protein in soy products (tofu, tempeh, seitan etc.) and these are generally staples in a vegan/vegetarian diet. Most people only need about 50 grams/day. Women need less than men. I think men generally require about 50-60, whereas women need maybe 40-60.
As far as cholesterol is concerned, I think it's safe to say most vegans get HDL from various sources (i.e. peanut butter.)
Anyhow, the main point is this: Veganism is like any other method of eating. You'll only be healthy if you do it right and sometimes more care has to be taken for a couple of nutrients (iron and B12, mostly.)
Adrian
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"I'm always asked "How do you get enough protein?" This is by far one of the silliest questions I've come across. There is a ton of protein in soy products (tofu, tempeh, seitan etc.) and these are generally staples in a vegan/vegetarian diet. Most people only need about 50 grams/day. Women need less than men. I think men generally require about 50-60, whereas women need maybe 40-60."
The figure for physically inactive people is closer to 80g a day, deüending on size (make it roughly half a gram per pound of bodyweight).
But as soon as the person is invilved in physical activities, the requirements go up. I'm not only talking about a bodybuilder's or weightlifter's 200-300 g / day; endurance sports (as anything else that involves muscular work) increase the need for protein. I'd say a normal, moderately active person who, say, goes running or swimming 2-3 days a week and throws in some situps and pushups in the morning, should be getting between 100-150 g a day. Also, for women, it is very important to get more than their usual anoubt during pregnancy! It will affect the child throughout his or her life.
Actually most Westerners do not get enough protein in their diets, although they could if they wanted to.
One more thing: Plant protein is lower-quality than animal protein (meat and dairy). It has a different mix of amino acids and can only be used to the extent that the least-prevalent essential AS. For example, to build 100g of your own human protein, you need 100g of eggwhite protein OR around 120 grams of red meat protein OR around 170g or protein from soy.
Therefore, I personally believe eating vegan is not very smart from a nutritional point of view. You can debate about red meat as much as you want, but even vegetarians often say they can eat the way they do because of eggs and dairy. I don't see any rational reasons not to eat dairy (a cup of cottage cheese before bed will do wonders). It is very high-quality protein, too.
The figure for physically inactive people is closer to 80g a day, deüending on size (make it roughly half a gram per pound of bodyweight).
But as soon as the person is invilved in physical activities, the requirements go up. I'm not only talking about a bodybuilder's or weightlifter's 200-300 g / day; endurance sports (as anything else that involves muscular work) increase the need for protein. I'd say a normal, moderately active person who, say, goes running or swimming 2-3 days a week and throws in some situps and pushups in the morning, should be getting between 100-150 g a day. Also, for women, it is very important to get more than their usual anoubt during pregnancy! It will affect the child throughout his or her life.
Actually most Westerners do not get enough protein in their diets, although they could if they wanted to.
One more thing: Plant protein is lower-quality than animal protein (meat and dairy). It has a different mix of amino acids and can only be used to the extent that the least-prevalent essential AS. For example, to build 100g of your own human protein, you need 100g of eggwhite protein OR around 120 grams of red meat protein OR around 170g or protein from soy.
Therefore, I personally believe eating vegan is not very smart from a nutritional point of view. You can debate about red meat as much as you want, but even vegetarians often say they can eat the way they do because of eggs and dairy. I don't see any rational reasons not to eat dairy (a cup of cottage cheese before bed will do wonders). It is very high-quality protein, too.
nautica
Man, all of this talk about not eating meat is making me hungry. Where's the beef? Rare, please.
Nautica
Nautica
Adrian
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lol nautica... Nothing beats a pound of rare, sizzlin' beef... 
wasteofo2
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Is there any difference between the uses of animal and plant proteins, other than you need more of some than you do of others?
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Adrian
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No. All dietary protein is broken down into amino acids.
Their primary use is as a building material for your own polypeptides, e.g. structural polypeptides (muscle tissue, hair, ...), enzymes, hormones, ...
When the body is starving AND/OR the amino acid pool in the bloodstream is full, amino acids can be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis in the liver for energy.
EDIT Some of the 20 amino acids can be derived from others, but 8 of them (tryptophan, lysine, methionine, phenylalanin, threonine, valine, leucine & isoleucine) are essential: they cannot be produced by the human body and need to ingested with food. Human polypeptides and proteins typically contain them in a certain ratio. The least available essential amino acid in relation to the ratio is a limiting factor for the production of your protein.
Animals have amino acid ratios similar to ours; the amino acid breakdown of their protein pretty much meets our demands. Plants' aa makeup differs more, and some plants lack one or two aa's almost completely. That's why vegeatarians need to balance their diet carefully and should eat / drink plenty of dairy and eggs.
Their primary use is as a building material for your own polypeptides, e.g. structural polypeptides (muscle tissue, hair, ...), enzymes, hormones, ...
When the body is starving AND/OR the amino acid pool in the bloodstream is full, amino acids can be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis in the liver for energy.
EDIT Some of the 20 amino acids can be derived from others, but 8 of them (tryptophan, lysine, methionine, phenylalanin, threonine, valine, leucine & isoleucine) are essential: they cannot be produced by the human body and need to ingested with food. Human polypeptides and proteins typically contain them in a certain ratio. The least available essential amino acid in relation to the ratio is a limiting factor for the production of your protein.
Animals have amino acid ratios similar to ours; the amino acid breakdown of their protein pretty much meets our demands. Plants' aa makeup differs more, and some plants lack one or two aa's almost completely. That's why vegeatarians need to balance their diet carefully and should eat / drink plenty of dairy and eggs.
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wasteofo2
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What are the specific amino acids which plants lack/are deficient in responsible for and what would be the consequences of not getting them? Are these amino acids found in seafood as well as things like poultry/beef/pork?
Adrian
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Animal protein (which includes all kinds of meat, seafood, dairy, and eggs) is also called "complete" protein because it contains sufficient amounts of all AAs we need.
Different plants may lack different AAs. Go to http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/vegetarian.html and scroll down to Table 4. Protein Complementation for a few examples.
Vegans can complement the protein in the differents plant they eat though. If plant A lacks amino acid X but has all others, and plant B lacks AA Y but is otherwise complete, you can combine them to get all AAs you need. But in the combined protein mix you'd still have only 50% of the AAs X and Y in this case, so that amount will be the limiting factor for your own protein synthesis. It's still much better than nothing, of course.
It's highly unlikely that anyone will miss out on one particular AA completely, unless his metabolism is affected by some kind of genetic disorder. But not getting enough of any of the 8 essential AAs OR not getting enough protein in general will lead to loss of muscle mass and strength, fatigue and decreased energy, stretch marks, can mess up the endocrinal system, will stun growth and mental development during childhood and adolescence, will stun the baby's development during pregnancy, anemia --- basically it will mess up everything in your body that requires proteins as enzymes or as building material. Extreme deprivation od protein over prolonged periods of time will result in death, but before that happens, the body will "cannibalize" its own tissue, such as muscles. That's how people can go without any food for over 3 weeks (e.g. soldiers behind enemy lines).
Different plants may lack different AAs. Go to http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/vegetarian.html and scroll down to Table 4. Protein Complementation for a few examples.
Vegans can complement the protein in the differents plant they eat though. If plant A lacks amino acid X but has all others, and plant B lacks AA Y but is otherwise complete, you can combine them to get all AAs you need. But in the combined protein mix you'd still have only 50% of the AAs X and Y in this case, so that amount will be the limiting factor for your own protein synthesis. It's still much better than nothing, of course.
It's highly unlikely that anyone will miss out on one particular AA completely, unless his metabolism is affected by some kind of genetic disorder. But not getting enough of any of the 8 essential AAs OR not getting enough protein in general will lead to loss of muscle mass and strength, fatigue and decreased energy, stretch marks, can mess up the endocrinal system, will stun growth and mental development during childhood and adolescence, will stun the baby's development during pregnancy, anemia --- basically it will mess up everything in your body that requires proteins as enzymes or as building material. Extreme deprivation od protein over prolonged periods of time will result in death, but before that happens, the body will "cannibalize" its own tissue, such as muscles. That's how people can go without any food for over 3 weeks (e.g. soldiers behind enemy lines).
Galatea
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From http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/ProteinRequie.htm
"The WHO protein figures translate into 56g of protein a day for a (75kg) man, and 48g for a (64kg) woman. The recommendations of the UK Department of Health and Social Security (DHSS) are slightly higher, at about 68g a day for sedentary or moderately active men, and 54g a day for women (2). Both these official recommendations suggest that eating 10% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount."
I find this hard to believe considering how much meat the average Westerner eats. Reference?
What vegetarians are these? I sure haven't met them. I know a few people whose nutrional requirements require them to consume animal products every now and then but I also know many vegans who do not need them as long as they supplement with B12 occasionally.
I, personally, am quite lactose intolerant. Dairy is out of the question for me despite my moral qualms with consuming it. I get plenty of protein from my (varied) day to day diet.
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