Is Absolute Truth a Myth?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of absolute truth, exploring philosophical perspectives on whether such a truth exists or if it is merely a construct of human perception. Participants engage in a dialogue that touches on the nature of truth, perception, and the implications of logical systems in defining reality.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that absolute truth is undermined by subjective perception, questioning how one can know if their perception aligns with another's.
  • Others suggest that truth can be based on the nature of the universe independent of perception, though this view is critiqued for being overly narrow.
  • A participant raises the idea that logical systems may not contain absolute truth but rather self-consistency, leading to tautological conclusions.
  • There is a discussion about whether reality itself can be considered absolute, with some asserting that it exists independently of our understanding.
  • One participant humorously claims that the only absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth, while others explore the implications of existence and non-existence in relation to absolute truth.
  • Several participants engage in a dialogue about the relativity of language and perception, suggesting that definitions and meanings can vary widely among individuals.
  • Questions are raised about the influence of human perception on the identification of logical systems, particularly in relation to concepts like non-Euclidean geometry.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the existence of absolute truth, with no consensus reached. Some lean towards the idea that absolute truth may exist in some form, while others maintain that it is fundamentally tied to subjective perception and interpretation.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in understanding arise from differing definitions of "absolute" and "truth," as well as the influence of individual perception on discussions of logical systems and reality.

  • #31
Ad Infinitum NAU said:
If you say "There is no absolute truth", then it goes back to the old situation if it is true it's false, if false it's true. There must be some kind of absolute truths (like mathematics) because saying "There is no absolute truth" is contradictory. See what I'm sayin?


No:

If it's true, then it's false.
If it's false, then it's false.
 
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  • #32
Well if you're going to say that there is no such thing as truth because everything is relative, then relativity is a truth and you contradict yourself.
 
  • #33
There is or isn't an absolute truth.
 
  • #34
Imparcticle said:
So, my point is that maybe cerain foods might cause a charge to be stonger in one person than in anothers, therefore making this one person like a certain food better. If that argument is correct, then is there an absolute truth? :confused:


Why are you concerned with an absolute truth with food tastes? Of course there is no absolute truth with the likeness of certain foods. things like favorite food, color, movie, music are all opinions, relative things. As far as mathematics is concerned, i think it is an absolute truth. i think it must be, since it is the "language" of the universe. Like I said before, 2+2=4, no matter where or when you are. It is independent of reference frame, like many things in math (tensors for example)..

Dissident Dan said:
No:

If it's true, then it's false.
If it's false, then it's false.


Yea I meant to type that.. Sometimes words are mistyped when you work 14 hour days...
 
  • #35
There is absolute truth, it is an experience which will uncover the great secret. In knowing this little secret, the universe will open to you. Any question in which you desire to ask will be answered. ANY QUESTION. It does not matter who agrees or disagrees, it stands of itself, and touches the heavans and the earth, for it is all things, and unthings.
 
  • #36
TENYEARS said:
There is absolute truth, it is an experience which will uncover the great secret. In knowing this little secret, the universe will open to you. Any question in which you desire to ask will be answered. ANY QUESTION. It does not matter who agrees or disagrees, it stands of itself, and touches the heavans and the earth, for it is all things, and unthings.


Ummm.. yyeeeaahh.. 'Absolute Truth' cannot answer the question of "What chocolate tastes the best?", or "What is the prettiest flower?", etc. I think you may have watched one too many reruns of The Lord Of The Rings.
 
  • #37
Ad Infinitum NAU said:
Ummm.. yyeeeaahh.. 'Absolute Truth' cannot answer the question of "What chocolate tastes the best?", or "What is the prettiest flower?", etc. I think you may have watched one too many reruns of The Lord Of The Rings.
What difference does it make so long as you're in heaven? :wink:
 
  • #38
Enos said:
There is or isn't an absolute truth.
Yes, if we are choosing between absolute truth and no absolute truth, we are choosing between one of two absolute truths. Got it? :wink:
 
  • #39
Iacchus32 said:
Yes, if we are choosing between absolute truth and no absolute truth, we are choosing between one of two absolute truths.

(playing the devil's advocate for a bit...)

I have seen this kind of reply a lot of times and it does make sense. The sentence "there is no absolute truth" can't possibly be true as a matter of logic, ergo it must be false, ergo absolute truth exists. That is fine. But what next? If absolute truths must exist as a matter of logical necessity, where are they, how do we find them, and can anyone provide some examples?

Now that, I think, will be tough. "I know it exists, I just don't know where it is". Just like misplaced car keys...

Any takers?
 
  • #40
There is and isn't an absolute truth.
 
  • #41
Enos said:
There is and isn't an absolute truth.

Is that "There is and there isn't" in the sense of Goedel, or in the sense of Schroedinger? :biggrin:
 
  • #42
Now who are they? lol
 
  • #43
Ad Infinitum NAU said:
Why are you concerned with an absolute truth with food tastes? Of course there is no absolute truth with the likeness of certain foods. things like favorite food, color, movie, music are all opinions, relative things. As far as mathematics is concerned, i think it is an absolute truth. i think it must be, since it is the "language" of the universe. Like I said before, 2+2=4, no matter where or when you are. It is independent of reference frame, like many things in math (tensors for example)..

Precisesly my original point. But I have come to wonder, do opinions have a factual basis? Are they logical?

My example about the brain was intended to describe a possibility where opinions are determined by the energy of certain chemical reactions. This implies there may be a systematic basis (that is, a logical basis) in which opinions are developed. Now, it may seem to us that opinions are tend to be different amoung various people. Some may have the same opinion, others a different opinion. This leads to the question, why do people have different opinions or opinions that are the same? If there are two ways in which to describe how much you like something (your liking of it is at a low degree or it is at a high degree), doesn't that make you wonder if there is a logical basis on which opinions are determined or exist?
Opinions seem to be rather sporadic. Just like a scatter plot diagram (i think that's what it's called; the name just won't come to me at this moment ) where many points on a coordinate plane are sporadically charted. Though it is sporadic, a line may be identified as a description of the average tendencies of the sporadic points on the graph. Do you understand where I'm going with this?
 
  • #44
Ad Infinitum NAU said:
Actually, I think "absolute truth" is a description of a statement, or set of statements, that is true no matter what, where, or when. Such as in math, 2+2=4, no matter what culture, no matter what galaxy...

No matter what the base, unless of course it is base 3.
 
  • #45
Prometheus said:
No matter what the base, unless of course it is base 3.
base or mod? it should work out anyways in either..
 
  • #46
Imparcticle said:
Precisesly my original point. But I have come to wonder, do opinions have a factual basis? Are they logical?

My example about the brain was intended to describe a possibility where opinions are determined by the energy of certain chemical reactions. This implies there may be a systematic basis (that is, a logical basis) in which opinions are developed. Now, it may seem to us that opinions are tend to be different amoung various people. Some may have the same opinion, others a different opinion. This leads to the question, why do people have different opinions or opinions that are the same? If there are two ways in which to describe how much you like something (your liking of it is at a low degree or it is at a high degree), doesn't that make you wonder if there is a logical basis on which opinions are determined or exist?
Opinions seem to be rather sporadic. Just like a scatter plot diagram (i think that's what it's called; the name just won't come to me at this moment ) where many points on a coordinate plane are sporadically charted. Though it is sporadic, a line may be identified as a description of the average tendencies of the sporadic points on the graph. Do you understand where I'm going with this?

yea.. but i'll have to wait til later to respond. my bday so I am runnin around catching sleep and parties..
 
  • #47
Ad Infinitum NAU said:
Actually, I think "absolute truth" is a description of a statement, or set of statements, that is true no matter what, where, or when. Such as in math, 2+2=4, no matter what culture, no matter what galaxy...

Well, climb out of the form that you are now in (that is, your human form) and watch mathematics, logic and any other device of causal and relational analysis colapse with it! Can you calculate or reason in a formless state?
 
  • #48
There is a big objective reality out there, or rather, absolute truth. But i don't think human minds would be able to fully comprehend it. Just as some people say the subjective is needed to elucidate the objective. its like light, light can lie to us, maybe our sh*it is pink or blue, but light tells us that its brown. its like accepted truths, it may not be exactly objective and an accurate representation of this "absolute truth", but as much as we need light, we need these bits of accepted wisdom.

Its like maybe, what if EM induction was not the result of electrons moving in the wire when it cuts a magnetic field. Maybe its little fairies in the wire who carry the electrons around and this movement wakes them up or something. Ok, so, this bit of accepted wisdom is defunct, but we invented electricity and the generator in the process anyway.

Humans naturally live in delusion, because the objective reality would be too infinite for us to comprehend. And its good, because it compels us to seek out this "truth", and this would lead to growth in human knowledge, an endless one even.
 
  • #49
We are expressions of absolute truth.
 
  • #50
Imparcticle said:
I was having a discussion with a friend a few days ago about the validity of absolute truth. She said that in many philosophy classes, it is taught that there is no aboslute truth. She believed the contrary was true, and based her argument on the following illustration (and for the heck of it, I'll just type our conversation):
My Friend: "What color is this wall?"
(the wall would normally be considered white)
my friend continues: "I believe it is white. Do you agree?"

me: "Yes. But how do I know the white you see is the same as the white I see? How do I know the white you see is not the equivalent of something I would percieve to be red?"

My friend: "How do you think we would be sure? I think we should go ask the maker of the paint"

me: "Ah, but my argument still holds for anyone. What if the maker is color blind? What if he IS blind?"

my friend: "well, we will have to bow to the creator of the paint. He should know what it is he created."

Me: "I think you misunderstand. The idea that there is no absolute truth is based on another idea: that there are various perspectives of one thing. There is no absolute certainty of one person's being more right than another. If it were taken as litrally as you have, then there would be no logical system in which to come up with the notion of truth in the first place...The universe has its own logical system of things, and those things have truth in them. On the other hand, we can say truth is defined by a particular logical system."

Am I right? I really want to understand this subject, if I have come to misunderstand it.

thanks


Look, suppose we assume that no claim is true absolutely (i.e., true regardless of what anybody thinks or perceives). If so, then we can infer that there is in fact at least one absolute truth. We can infer from our original supposition that the claim "no claim is true absolutely" is itself true absolutely. But, of course, this contradicts our original supposition. So, the supposition "no claim is true absolutely" entails its own falsehood. Any claim that entails a falsehood is false, so our original supposition is false. Hence, there is at least one abolute truth. QED
 
  • #51
Absolute truth?

Absolute compared to what?
 
  • #52
The following sets have the same cardinality:
1. the set of absolutely true statements
2. the set of statements that aren't absolutely true
3. the set of statements
4. the set of natural numbers

and perhaps the above statement is itself a member of the set mentioned in 1.
 
  • #53
Of course there is absolute truth. If truth were not absolute then it would make no difference what we do. Everyone has found that at about the age of 2 that what you do make a difference in results. If you have been paying attention all you life you should know by now that going against absolute truth has bad results. I think the number of repeated bad choices they make never realizing that they are making choices against basic truth may judge the intelligence of a person.
 
  • #54
TENYEARS said:
We are expressions of absolute truth.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
  • #55
Is there an absolute truth??

NO!

Oh, wait...
 
  • #56
yes, we are expressions of absolute truth, but we are under illusion if we think we are representing it absolutely objectively. ie. mathematics are elitist to the nonmathematician. philosophy is elitist to the non philosopher. etc...

yet all the people (and animals and plants etc.) in the world who have there own versions of truth, still exist, and mathematicians still exist for all the others.

the complexity of ones truths reflects the individual constructor of the truth, and is also linked directly to their intentions.

for example, fish F may have the truth: subject X provides quality Y for my own survival. (one obviously cannot assume to understand another, unless one IS the other, but this is just an example)

but fish P may have the truth: subject X provides quality Z for my offsprings survival.

now, when fish F and P both desire subject X for say quality T (maybe to restore a dwelling) quality T would be considered an objective truth, no?


ohhh... maybe not but it makes you think though doesn't it?

substitute the fish F for one culture of the human race, and fish P for another and what do you get? maybe a surprisingly accurate representation of Reality.


does this make sense?
 
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