Is Cheating a Lucrative Business for College Students?

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A Florida college professor has confronted widespread cheating among business students, offering an ultimatum: confess, retake the exam, and attend an ethics class, or risk not graduating. This situation arose after a significant portion of the class was suspected of cheating, with some students justifying their actions by claiming that "everyone cheats." The professor's decision has sparked a debate about ethics in education, the responsibility of educators to prevent cheating, and the implications for honest students who must also retake the exam. Many participants in the discussion express sympathy for the professor and criticize the culture of cheating, while others argue that the professor's inability to secure the exam reflects poorly on his teaching methods. The conversation also touches on the challenges of detecting cheating statistically and the moral implications of students confessing to cheating they did not commit. Overall, the thread highlights the complexities of academic integrity and the varying perspectives on accountability in educational settings.
  • #51
Pengwuino said:
You do realize he's actually giving these people a chance to not be EXPELLED? He could have just said "ok, you cheated, you've all been reported, have fun working at mcdonalds for the rest of your life".

Yes, someone should stop this man from not letting more liars and cheaters out into the business world. I suppose you enjoy when people lie and cheat you right?
Who cares what he does ? I don't. If I was proven a cheater, AND YOU CAUGHT ME, expel me. If not, take a chill pill. YOu have no right to harass me before graduation.
 
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  • #52
DanP said:
Who cares what he does ? I don't. If I was proven a cheater, AND YOU CAUGHT ME, expel me. If not, take a chill pill. YOu have no right to harass me before graduation.

This thinking befuddles me. Are you telling me that if you were on the verge of graduating after 4+ years and in the final hours, you're caught cheating and are given a chance not to be expelled, you'd say "No! this is harassment. Expel me. I don't want to graduate if I have to take a 4 hour seminar".

Yah, right. I think you're just trolling.
 
  • #53
Pengwuino said:
This thinking befuddles me. Are you telling me that if you were on the verge of graduating after 4+ years and in the final hours, you're caught cheating and are given a chance not to be expelled, you'd say "No! this is harassment. Expel me. I don't want to graduate if I have to take a 4 hour seminar".
No sorry. Heuristics are not proof that a individual cheated. You either caught me either not.

Second,you don't force all your class, cheaters and not cheaters, to re-take an exam. Deal with the proven cheaters as you see fit. I don't care.

Don't harass the students which where not proven guilty with exams re-takes and ethics courses.

Pengwuino said:
Yah, right. I think you're just trolling.

You are just defensive because you teach. You must learn to accept different opinions by yours,even if they are strong and non standard, without yelling trolling.
 
  • #54
I'd admit i'd be mighty pissed off if I'm told I have to redo something if I've done nothing wrong (especially if I'd got a good score). Also I'd have to agree that unless there was conclusive proof, you can't really accuse someone of cheating, saying statistically you had an odd score isn't really good enough. As it's perfectly possible someone normal just fluked it, being possible brings in reasonable doubt.

If I were in the position of a caught cheater, you clearly would just do the seminar. It's a get out of jail free card. Fankly you'd be a moron not to do it.

Not that I would ever cheat on a test.
 
  • #55
DanP said:
You are just defensive because you teach. You must learn to accept different opinions by yours,even if they are strong and non standard, without yelling trolling.

I'm a student as well. Your ideas are simply ridiculous and I know even you don't believe in them unless you have a horribly misunderstood idea of what being a student is suppose to be about. If you feel being a student is about cheating the system for 4 years, then... well, you're not alone unfortunately.

The professor is not an idiot, I'm sure (and if you've watched his lecture and done some research on it, you'd think this as well) his information goes beyond "I saw people did better, thus student x, student y, and student z cheated". Everything was electronic. If you have been teaching for a while, you know not to tell people how you know exactly who cheated and who didn't upfront.
 
  • #56
DanP said:
YOu have no right to harass me before graduation.
How do you know what rights the teacher does or doesn't have? Have you read the regulations for the school in question?
 
  • #57
Pengwuino said:
I'm a student as well. Your ideas are simply ridiculous and I know even you don't believe in them unless you have a horribly misunderstood idea of what being a student is suppose to be about. If you feel being a student is about cheating the system for 4 years, then... well, you're not alone unfortunately.

No, your position is submissive and ridiculous. My position simply says that you cannot punish innocent beings. That you need to identify the guilty , and apply sanctions only to the guilty parties.

What part of this you find ridiculous ? Perhaps you find ridiculous the legal system as well, and the fact that we only punish the ones who we find guilty and we don't put ppl in jail based on statistics or hunches ?
Pengwuino said:
The professor is not an idiot, I'm sure (and if you've watched his lecture and done some research on it, you'd think this as well) his information goes beyond "I saw people did better, thus student x, student y, and student z cheated". Everything was electronic. If you have been teaching for a while, you know not to tell people how you know exactly who cheated and who didn't upfront.

If he can't name the ones who cheated, he has nothing. If you don't want to say who did cheated and who didn't cheated upfront you have a problem. A big problem. You cover cheaters. YOu are a cheater yourself automatically. You hit in the best interests of fair students by covering the cheaters. By forcing punishment on all, innocent or not, to retake the test, you hit in innocents. You automatically favored cheaters. Unacceptable for a prof.
 
  • #58
DanP said:
If he can't name the ones who cheated, he has nothing. If you don't want to say who did cheated and who didn't cheated upfront you have a problem. A big problem. You cover cheaters. YOu are a cheater yourself automatically. You hit in the best interests of fair students by covering the cheaters. By forcing punishment on all, innocent or not, to retake

He probably knows exactly who cheated and is giving them probably the biggest break in their lives by allowing them to retake it. It's unfortunate for the students around them, who probably mainly knew people were cheating, that their fellow students have put them in such a bad situation. Welcome to the real world. Your average student probably has had a ton of courses where their grades were curved because the rest of the class did so poorly. For one time in their college career, something negative will happen because of the rest of the class. They have to sit through 1 more exam. Big deal. Call in the lawyers.
 
  • #59
Slight aside: The business education model must be drastically different than that used in math, science, and technology given that (a) 600 people were in the class, (b) the class was for seniors, and (c) the test was multiple guess. In our world those huge classes are for lower level undergrads and tests are (or were) essay questions of the derive this, compute that sort.
 
  • #60
Pengwuino said:
He probably knows exactly who cheated and is giving them probably the biggest break in their lives by allowing them to retake it. It's unfortunate for the students around them, who probably mainly knew people were cheating, that their fellow students have put them in such a bad situation. Welcome to the real world. Your average student probably has had a ton of courses where their grades were curved because the rest of the class did so poorly. For one time in their college career, something negative will happen because of the rest of the class. They have to sit through 1 more exam. Big deal. Call in the lawyers.

The professor is a cheater then. He covers cheaters and gives them unfair advantages and willingly hits into decent honest and rule following students.

What this professor teaches is that cheating pays.That he will step into cover those cheaters. And that if you where fair, you will be punished at his whim , having to retake exams.

It is the professor himself who should sit in a ethics class. . It's not a case for lawyers, what the decent students should do is make the professor and his antics tones of coverage on internet media.
 
  • #61
He's not only taking into account relative marks in determining who cheated and who succeeded honestly. From what I've read, they're also finding out who purchased/accessed the answers.

From the marks statistics, he can make a list, and be confident that every cheater is on the list. He can't be confident that every person on the list is a cheater.
From the information about who accessed the answers, he can make a separate list, and be confident that every person on the list is a cheater, but not that every cheater is on the list.

He can only submit the second list for punishment, as they are the only people that can be proven to have cheated. As some of the cheaters will certainly be overlooked, the fairest solution for the non-cheaters is to force everyone to retake the test. As far as marks in the course go, it is to the benefit of the non-cheaters that everyone in the class retake the exam.
 
  • #62
DanP said:
It is the professor himself who should sit in a ethics class.

I disagree.

You may not agree with the professor's choice and I read your points above and understand your point of view, but, there is nothing unethical in his actions. Real life situations don't always offer a clear ethical path. Each path has its own ethical issues, and a person has to weigh many factors and make a personal choice.

The professor is offering a type of forgiveness and a fair shake to the cheaters. He is offering them a chance to learn from their mistake and not suffer permanently for a poor choice they made. He is allowing them to get a grade that measures their actual knowledge. He is possibly saving the parents of the cheaters from a total loss of the investment they made in their kids education. (assuming cheating could be conclusively proved, which is decided by others and is out of his hands, by the way)

The teacher apparently feels he has no choice but to force all to retake the exam. He may have a good idea who cheated and who didn't, but he can't be sure. Ethically, he can't allow grades that are certainly corrupted by cheating to be counted. By forcing a reexam, he can be sure that all get a fair grade. Yes, the noncheaters are inconvenienced, but that's the fault of the cheaters. It's not unethical to inconvenience someone. It can be unfair, but may be unavoidable in some cases. Personally, if I did not cheat, I would rather retake the exam, than let the cheaters keep their good grades. The additional exam also allows further discrimination of the cheaters from the noncheaters. (statistically at least) Postmortem analysis is important and even ethical.

There is nothing unethical in the professors behavior. He is a human being in a no-win situation making a decision that he feels is the most fair and compassionate to all involved.

I could just as easily say that your choice of action is unethical, but I wouldn't do that because it would be unfair since you are just putting different weights to the ethical concerns and making your own opinion about what is the most ethical decision to make.
 
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  • #63
stevenb said:
The professor is offering a type of forgiveness and a fair shake to the cheaters. He is offering them a chance to learn from their mistake and not suffer permanently for a poor choice they made. He

Dont do-it at the expense of fair students by forcing all to re-take the exam. This is clearly a unethical choice. It is simply wrong to punish the innocent and at the same time be lenient to
the real cheaters, giving them a chance.


He and the school ****ed it up badly IMO. Their process is very badly flawed if they get such high percentages of cheaters.
 
  • #64
What would count as definitive proof of cheating? What basis of accusation is needed before the professor can expel someone? Surely a statistically suspicious result on a multiple choice test could not be sufficient.

I would rather have 100 cheaters free of accusation than one honest student expelled and I hope most would feel the same.

I think the professor is right in making all retake the exam. First of all, the cheaters cannot be graded on this test, and second of all the honest students would have an unfair result relative to the global outcome. Statistically you'd get the same result on the next test. DanP; making students retaking the test isn't punishment, being expelled is punishment. The professor has clear and objective reasons for making all retake the test.
 
  • #65
DanP said:
Dont do-it at the expense of fair students by forcing all to re-take the exam. This is clearly a unethical choice. It is simply wrong to punish the innocent and at the same time be lenient to
the real cheaters, giving them a chance. He and the school ****ed it up badly IMO. Their process is very badly flawed if they get such high percentages of cheaters.

How is letting the scores stand fair to the noncheating students? It's harmful to them to have lower scores relative to the average. He's not punishing the innocent. He is trying to somehow get back to a level playing field as best as possible. Your statement that forcing a retake is unethical is unfounded. It's unfair to the students who didn't cheat, but it's also unfair to let the scores stand. This is a no-win situation. Your solution is just as unfair, but again I wouldn't call you unethical if you decided that was best. However, if I were an noncheating student, I'd be pissed off at you for sure. You seem to be saying that taking a test is akin to torture or some other horror. I'd retake a test any time if I knew that 1/3 of the class had the answers prior to the test the first time. Even if I do slightly worse, I'm sure to do much better relative to the class.

I agree that this issue of showing lenience is potentially unfair, but forgiveness is not unethical. Perhaps he has no right to forgive them on behalf of the noncheating students, but the complication is that he can't prove conclusively who cheated, so maybe it's better to just identify them by letting them confess. Again, your accusation of unethical behavior is unfounded.
 
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  • #66
stevenb said:
Ethically, he can't allow grades that are certainly corrupted by cheating to be counted. By forcing a reexam, he can be sure that all get a fair grade. Yes, the noncheaters are inconvenienced, but that's the fault of the cheaters. It's not unethical to inconvenience someone. It can be unfair, but may be unavoidable in some cases. Personally, if I did not cheat, I would rather retake the exam, than let the cheaters keep their good grades.

I do understand the point that the innocent shouldn't have to pay for other people's dishonesty, as I'm pretty sure you do too. I know I'd feel that way at first. I always really hate it when I'm treated by someone else as if I'm dishonest by default, since I know I'm pretty much honest to a fault (but not to stupidity... For example, I know that "Do I look fat in these jeans?" is a TRAP!) - and don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect over here.

But I still agree with you on your points. I think if I was one of the innocent students, I'd be angry at first, but then I'd realize that it's probably the only fair way to handle it. And that it's the cheaters that put everyone in this situation in the first place.

I'd also realize that I get a chance to get an even better score since I got a practice run. I should have an idea in which areas I was weak, and get a chance to brush up. Either way I should be able to better my score, I figure. Though if the new test is purposefully harder than the first, that would be maybe a bit unfair. Hopefully it's roughly equal in difficulty.

On the other hand, if I was one of the cheating students, I'd hope that I would learn a lesson from this. That what's important is not if you cheat or not, but whether you got caught. KIDDING! :biggrin:
 
  • #67
DanP said:
It is simply wrong to punish the innocent ...
And letting the grades of the non-cheaters be unfairly pushed down by the high scoring cheaters is a better outcome for the innocent?

and at the same time be lenient to the real cheaters, giving them a chance.
Yet you propose doing nothing. Is that not more lenient than making them retake the test?
 
  • #68
Gokul43201 said:
And letting the grades of the non-cheaters be unfairly pushed down by the high scoring cheaters is a better outcome for the innocent?

Exactly! Remember, a lot of classes - especially science and math - are graded on a curve.

The cheaters are screwing the honest students out of their hard-earned grades.
 
  • #69
Astronuc said:
Florida college professor gives cheating business students an ultimatum - confess, retake the test and attend an ethics class, or don't graduate.

Hooray!

lisab said:
Exactly! Remember, a lot of classes - especially science and math - are graded on a curve.

The cheaters are screwing the honest students out of their hard-earned grades.

Aha! I knew there was a reason I...
 
  • #70
original link is dead, but from the discussion, it sounds like we've got ourselves a lazy teacher. disciplinary action is being wielded in the wrong direction.
 
  • #71
Proton Soup said:
original link is dead, but from the discussion, it sounds like we've got ourselves a lazy teacher.
Justify?

disciplinary action is being wielded in the wrong direction.
Explain?
 
  • #72
Gokul43201 said:
Justify?

Explain?

instructor is lazy and generates exams from a testbank.
 
  • #73
If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test, I would have taken it and continued my normal studying.

Bad/Lazy teacher IMO.
 
  • #74
Proton Soup said:
instructor is lazy and generates exams from a testbank.
Still waiting on an explanation for the other part.
 
  • #75
electrical_ck said:
If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test, I would have taken it and continued my normal studying.

Even if you are not ethical enough, one would hope you would at least be smart enough to not take the possible final exam test. Your willingness to risk expulsion and the loss of invested college tuition and valuable years of your time, when very little is to be gained, does not speak well of your common sense.

Being truthful is the one bright spot in your comment, but I wonder if you would be honest enough to say that to your parents, and prospective employers. If yes, then at least here you would be putting truth ahead of common sense, which is a step in the right direction.

I would recommend that you aim higher. Try being ethical and smart at the same time. You'll be amazed at what unexpected rewards often come of it.
 
  • #76
Evolutionary speaking a cheater would be a favorable trait among many. And this is what we see in the real world. Many people cheat all the time, whether at blue collar jobs or white collar jobs, whether young or old, whether married? Whenever there is a possibility to MILK the system, you will find lots of people lining up for grabs. One can even argue that the economic crisis was a direct result of cheating.

And so, there is no point in zeroing in on bunch of students. This system is basically a combination of upbringing, socials norms, peer pressure, (nurture), and human evolution (nature). And you have no control over these forces. While I'm not supporting cheating, I recognize those who did cheat simply exercised the physical laws that makes them up, the mind and the body (Ashby). Cheating is an emergent process.

Therefore, if you don't like it and don't and want to impede cheating, you have to fight it. Don't expect and drool over arbitrarily moral axioms and expect everyone will bend over. Take active action.
 
  • #77
stevenb said:
Even if you are not ethical enough, one would hope you would at least be smart enough to not take the possible final exam test. Your willingness to risk expulsion and the loss of invested college tuition and valuable years of your time, when very little is to be gained, does not speak well of your common sense.

Being truthful is the one bright spot in your comment, but I wonder if you would be honest enough to say that to your parents, and prospective employers. If yes, then at least here you would be putting truth ahead of common sense, which is a step in the right direction.

I would recommend that you aim higher. Try being ethical and smart at the same time. You'll be amazed at what unexpected rewards often come of it.

umm ok mr high horse? Do you have a problem with students passing around old exams for studying purposes? When a student would give me an old exam from previous semesters I would practice those problems, I never said I would bring an old exam or anything to the actual exam. I would use it as a study guide if anything.
 
  • #78
electrical_ck said:
umm ok mr high horse? When a student would give me an old exam from previous semesters I would practice those problems, I never said I would bring an old exam or anything to the actual exam. I would use it as a study guide if anything.

Ah, studying from old exams is not cheating, but you said "If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test I would have taken it ...". This sounded like you would be taking a possible copy of the exam you are about to take, which would be cheating.

If you are saying the former and not the latter, then I'm sorry. I don't think this case is about students studying from old exams. It seems to be about students knowing they had THE answers to the present exam. There is a huge difference here.
 
  • #79
stevenb said:
Ah, studying from old exams is not cheating, but you said "If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test I would have taken it ...". This sounded like you would be taking a possible copy of the exam you are about to take, which would be cheating.

If you are saying the former and not the latter, then I'm sorry. I don't think this case is about students studying from old exams. It seems to be about students knowing they had THE answers to the present exam. There is a huge difference here.

Yeah I would never bring anything like that to an actual final.
 
  • #80
electrical_ck said:
Yeah I would never bring anything like that to an actual final.

Ah, good! I'm sincerely happy to hear that. I apologize.
 
  • #81
Gokul43201 said:
Still waiting on an explanation for the other part.

what is there to explain? you discipline the teacher for being lazy and using a testbank to generate the exams.

sure, it's great to believe that there's this awesome labor-saving device from the textbook companies. and it's a great way to get teachers to use your book. but this stuff gets stolen and has been out there for a long time now. you would think even an inkling of common sense would exist at the university level. but no.

i also find his theatrics just a wee bit incredulous(i did find the vid on youtube, tho it seems it's being scrubbed from the net as we speak). flabbergasted and floored is he? i guess i would be too if my *** were exposed.
 
  • #82
Proton Soup said:
what is there to explain? you discipline the teacher for being lazy and using a testbank to generate the exams.
So the teacher should be disciplined for breaking the unwritten code of "thou shalt not be lazy", but the students that cheated deserve no punishment for violating clearly written rules?
 
  • #83
Some people seem to see Teacher vs. Student as some sort of competition! NO, students are NOT in a competition with the teacher to con them out of giving them passing grades and teachers are not suppose to see students as a pack of criminals that must have every defense built up against their need to cheat! That seems to be the problem with students. They have no idea what it means to "earn" a grade. Someone at another department has an article posted on their door about how students don't believe they have to "earn" grades (although the article focused more upon "A for effort" thinking). I need to get a hold of that article...
 
  • #84
Don't you think this is an inherent trait of multiple choice tests though? (I'm still assuming this is multiple choice, as there has been nothing to show otherwise yet and even 50 short answer questions would be a pretty hefty exam). I can see the justification, as marking 600 long answer tests would take rather a long time.

It's just far more difficult to cheat at long answer questions (you'll need a bloody big crib sheet or eyes like superman), as you get most of your marks for method rather than the answer.

And frankly method marks have saved my bacon more than once.
 
  • #85
stevenb said:
I agree that this issue of showing lenience is potentially unfair, but forgiveness is not unethical. Perhaps he has no right to forgive them on behalf of the noncheating students, but the complication is that he can't prove conclusively who cheated, so maybe it's better to just identify them by letting them confess. Again, your accusation of unethical behavior is unfounded.


Then he has no case. He should lie down, and realize that the fault is his and the school's for the poor processes which led to such a situation.

Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which can't be proven by a investigator. It's naive to expect to identify ppl "by letting them confess". SOme will crack, most wont.


Third, yes, I can say he is an unethical man. He favors cheaters. He basically screams "Hey, cheating pays off. Ill forgive you cheaters, and Illl hit in fair students for you"
 
  • #86
Why is it always students vs teacher here?

I'm somewhat dubious about what constitutes cheating, but if there was a possible 700 questions and they were able to access the answers to the exact ones on a test then they clearly had access to the questions before hand - as long as the teacher didn't provide them, that is cheating.
If they had all 700 multiple choice answers on their person going into the exam, that is cheating.
If they had all 700 questions with answers and used them to study from, that isn't cheating.

Do we know which of the above it was?

The first is cheating on the students part.
The second is cheating on the students part, but I'd also put some blame on the lecturer for using such an easily breached system for generating exams.
The third is, from my point of view, not cheating on the students part. It simply the lecturer using an unsecure method of generating the exams and the students studying from the materials they know will come up - pretty much revising from past years papers (in my uni, although the questions change, the general theme of them is the same).

So far as letting them resit the test goes, this is plain ridiculous and is screaming to me that he feels he had a part in this problem. He is trying to cover his mistake. The ethics class, I don't think he can force on anyone unless he can prove who cheated.
I have to say, innocent until proven guilty. This isn't about "letting the cheaters go", this is about proving who has cheated and punishing accordingly. Otherwise you end up in a situation where possibly only some of those who cheated get punished and face potentially punishing those who didn't cheat.
 
  • #87
DanP said:
Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which can't be proven by a investigator. It's naive to expect to identify ppl "by letting them confess". SOme will crack, most wont.

Except in this case. Of an estimated 200 cheaters, about 75% confessed and took the professor up on his offer. Most cracked. And of those who cracked, how many will tell who they got the answer sheets from and who they shared the answer sheet with?

Any cheaters that didn't confess will experience huge stress at a minimum and at least some of the non-confessing cheaters are going to face full punishment.

I agree that if all the students had stood pat and said nothing, there wouldn't have been much the teacher could have done.

As things worked out, the teacher inconvenienced all the students, with their consolation being two chances and their grade being the best of their two chances. He also made the incident very unpleasant for most of the cheaters and possibly devastating for some of the cheaters. (And the ethics class is for the confessed cheaters, not for all of the students.)

There's only one possibility that hasn't been covered. The cheater that confesses and then lies about who gave him the answer key and who he shared it with. In other words, he and/or a few other cheaters implicate innocent people just to obtain a small amount of revenge on the professor by turning his plan into a fiasco.
 
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  • #88
DanP said:
Then he has no case. He should lie down, and realize that the fault is his and the school's for the poor processes which led to such a situation.

Sure, some of the fault is with the professor and the school. They were not good enough policeman. Still, the police don't lie down, blame themselves and not-deal with the crime and the criminals just because they were not good enough to prevent the crime.

DanP said:
Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which can't be proven by a investigator. It's naive to expect to identify ppl "by letting them confess". SOme will crack, most wont.
In life it might be stupid to confess, but here (in a school) is was a good choice. It's not naive to expect ppl to confess. They do it all the time. Here most did crack, so again you are wrong, as clearly shown by the data.

DanP said:
Third, yes, I can say he is an unethical man. He favors cheaters. He basically screams "Hey, cheating pays off. Ill forgive you cheaters, and Illl hit in fair students for you"

Nonsense. Giving someone a second chance is not unethical, it is not favoring and it is not condoning the behavior. Note that I'm not saying I necessarily agree with all actions of the professor, nor do I necessarily disagree with all of your points. I just think an accusation of unethical behavior back at the professor is unfair and even unethical in itself.
 
  • #89
rhody said:
Bob,

Lets say research assignment, back to my original question then:


Is it plagiarism even if credit is given by the student to the source, what would the professor's options be given this circumstance ?

Rhody...

It's a funny world. Some people have trouble writing their own memoirs without resorting to plagiarism.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/12/george-bush-book-decision-points_n_782731.html#s180908

Is it ethical to challenge the accuracy of someone's description of events and then later use that description almost word for word in your own memoirs?

I can only hope that someday he'll regret admitting to torture in his memoirs and respond with the age old defense, "I was misquoted".
 
  • #90
Gokul43201 said:
So the teacher should be disciplined for breaking the unwritten code of "thou shalt not be lazy", but the students that cheated deserve no punishment for violating clearly written rules?

maybe a little of both. but you need clear evidence of cheating.


another question might be just how much this is a cheat. 700 questions in the test bank. if you're studying 700 questions, then one might reasonably conclude that you're studying the material itself. and if you learn the material, then you deserve the grade.
 
  • #91
DanP said:
Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which can't be proven by a investigator.
It is stupid or/and unethical to get willingly in a situation that will require investigation.
 
  • #92
Upisoft said:
It is stupid or/and unethical to get willingly in a situation that will require investigation.

unethical , maybe. Stupid ? Frankly, not always.
 
  • #93
If the questions come from a test bank of 700, and the students are aware of this so they then go away and study those 700 questions, I wouldn't call that cheating. They have been told what is likely to come up and have studied accordingly.

The only way it becomes cheating is if they either all of the answer to the potential 700 questions or the specific answers to the test questions into the exam.

My university provides past papers to students to revise from. I can look through those papers and see what types of questions are likely to come up, so from that I know what I need to be studying.
I put most of my effort into studying those style of questions and making sure I can answer them. It is pointless me studying something that has never come up (the lecturers tell us to look over past papers because they are the question styles we're likely to see).

Is it cheating that I learn how to do those types of questions to perfection? No. I'm learning from the materials provided.
If the uni insisted on vastly different questions each year that would stop that revision style, but until then that is the accepted way to revise for exams and even the lecturers will tell you that.
(Through the paper there are a number of questions covering all topics learned through the year - you still have to know what you're doing because there are little changes each time, but it's still a similar question style - generally on a every other year basis).

If the students know what is likely to come up and learn that, that isn't cheating (assuming they don't gain said knowledge via unethical means).
 
  • #94
One thing I'm wondering is this... 700 questions... for a midterm exam?

A midterm covers what, 4-8 weeks of material? How can you even generate 700 questions for an area of a text that is covered in such a brief time? This isn't a physics text where you can just change a number and situation here and there and have a brand new problem to a student. Then again, you can't even do that.

I'm starting to think the 700 question number being thrown around is realistically far far fewer than that. If you're going to memorize 700 questions, why not just... be honest and study?
 
  • #95
it's interesting how he changes the bin sizes on the histograms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzJTTDO9f4

is changing the bin size an external force applied to the data set ?oh, and then he mentions the issue at the end about the textbook companies turning this over to their legal staff. so students that turn themselves in under the amnesty offered may be exposing themselves to civil action? this could get interesting.
 
Last edited:
  • #96
Proton Soup said:
oh, and then he mentions the issue at the end about the textbook companies turning this over to their legal staff. so students that turn themselves in under the amnesty offered may be exposing themselves to civil action? this could get interesting.

I'm sure a lot of that was just to scare the students. The only real legal action the companies would try to pursue is against the person who originally gained access to the questions.
 
  • #97
Pawn shop owners who accept stolen goods are accessories to the crime. People who buy stolen art are accessories to the crime. The same applies to those students who obtained this stolen information.
 
  • #98
It is sickening to think that people are actually blaming the teacher for the fact that the students stole the test. If someone broke into your house is it your fault if they steal from you? Should insurance companies just be able to say, "Sorry, we are no going to give you any money because you should have been able to stop the thief." This is rediculous. At my school there are literally no professors or TAs in the room when the tests take place (they are usually in a room close by in case anyone has questions). And guess what: NO ONE CHEATS (which goes against all of the people who make the rediculous claim that everyone cheats). There is a very strict honor code that all students sign before the test. If anyone is found to have cheated there are serious repercussions. But I do not know of anyone that has cheated. It is horrible that some of you are excusing people from cheating. Also, they would be cheating the good kids in the class by ruining the curve. So we are penalizing the kids who didnt cheat!
 
  • #99
the problem i have is that using test banks only serves to enable cheating. if you are a student that would not cheat under any circumstances, electronically-distributed test banks only make things worse for you. they should either make the banks openly-available to all students, or get rid of them entirely.
 
  • #100
Proton Soup said:
the problem i have is that using test banks only serves to enable cheating. if you are a student that would not cheat under any circumstances, electronically-distributed test banks only make things worse for you. they should either make the banks openly-available to all students, or get rid of them entirely.

I have to be totally straight with you here...if someone gave me the answers to a test right before I sat for it, and the circumstances were such that no one could *ever* find out that I used them...I just couldn't use them. And I really, truly believe most people are like me (doesn't everyone think that :rolleyes:). I think most people are honorable. So this "enabling the cheating"...I don't buy it. Cheating is cheating; how easy it was is irrelevant.
 

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