Is Chomsky's View on the Mind-Body Problem Redefining Materialism?

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Chomsky critiques traditional views on the mind-body problem, arguing that it can only be sensibly posed with a clear conception of "body," which has been undermined by modern physics. He suggests that the material world is defined by our scientific theories rather than a fixed notion of physicality, leading to the conclusion that the mind-body problem lacks coherent formulation. Chomsky posits that as we develop and integrate theories of the mind, we may redefine what is considered "physical" without a predetermined concept of materiality. Critics like Nagel argue that subjectivity and qualia cannot be reduced to material entities, regardless of future scientific advancements. Ultimately, Chomsky advocates for a focus on understanding mental phenomena within the evolving framework of science, rather than getting bogged down in the elusive definitions of "mind" and "body."
  • #451
bohm2 said:
I thought this was an interesting debate by pro-minimalist/optimalist paper (Hiroki Narita & Koji Fujita) arguing that physical law versus natural selection played a more important role in the evolution of language.

The examples of optimisation are standard fare for dissipative structure theory...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructal_theory

Nature is already self-optimising - it can adapt its constraints so long as there is a flow from which to learn.

The epistemic cut is then what happens when there is a strong separation between the information that constrains the flow and the flow, rather than the very weak separation we see in non-living dissipative structures, like tornadoes and whirlpools.

So it is not as if anything here poses any particular problem that has not already been addressed.

That is why the debates that swirl around Chomksy's ramblings sound like ancient history, folk fumbling in the dark after concepts already articulated.
 
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  • #452
apeiron said:
I don't see any appeal in leaving substance dualism open as a live option.
I don't think he really believes that. He's just arguing that it can't be ruled out a priori as it is really an empirical question (assuming we have the cognitive tools to answer it). His major argument is really this quote:
The mind-body problem can be posed sensibly only insofar as we have a definite conception of body. If we have no such definite and fixed conception, we cannot ask whether some phenomena fall beyond its range. The Cartesians offered a fairly definite conception of body in terms of their contact mechanics, which in many respects reflects commonsense understanding...[However] the Cartesian concept of body was refuted by seventeenth-century physics, particularly in the work of Isaac Newton, which laid the foundations for modern science. Newton demonstrated that the motions of the heavenly bodies could not be explained by the principles of Descartes’s contact mechanics, so that the Cartesian concept of body must be abandoned.
Unfortunately, while this argument may have been valid before Einstein, it is less valid after Einstein's classical field theory and general relativity where
...all of the beables are local, and local in the strongest sense: the entire physical situation is nothing but the sum of the physical situations in the infinitely small regions of space-time.
It is only with QM, that Chomsky's argument is once again valid. Consider, Kim's 2 questions below. Do they even make sense with what we know today from QM?
1. How can a thing such as consciousness exist in a physical world, a world consisting ultimately of nothing but bits of matter distributed over space-time in accordance with the laws of physics?

2. How can the mind exert its causal powers in a world that is fundamentally physical?
What I mean, is those assumptions by Kim seem questionable and one of them probably inaccurate with what we know today in QM, I think. Moreover, this also assumes that physics is finished or won't change much as per Nagel's argument. Unfortunately another form of dualism seems to exist even in physics, whether one is talking about attempts to unify QM with GR or even with respect to the wave-particle dichotomy in QM. By the way, I thought this was interesting piece in a Biosemiotics journal contrasting the similarities and differences between Thomas Sebeok and Noam Chomsky:

On the Origin of Language: A Bridge Between Biolinguistics and Biosemiotics
http://www.biosemiotica.it/internal_links/pdf/Barbieri%20(2010)%20On%20the%20Origin%20of%20Language.pdf

I still don't understand that part about heirarchical constraints. How is this incompatible with Chomsky's position. I've read stuff of his from the 1960s where he argues about heirarchy and constraints. Do you mean that the concept is been used differently in semiotics/biosemiotics, etc?
 
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  • #453
bohm2 said:
By the way, I thought this was interesting piece in a Biosemiotics journal contrasting the similarities and differences between Thomas Sebeok and Noam Chomsky:

Barbieri has already been discussed in this thread. See post #209.

bohm2 said:
I still don't understand that part about heirarchical constraints. How is this incompatible with Chomsky's position. I've read stuff of his from the 1960s where he argues about heirarchy and constraints. Do you mean that the concept is been used differently in semiotics/biosemiotics, etc?

The context was Chomsky's claims to be evo-devo, yet he is still bringing up these hopeful monster genetic scenarios.

The Brakefield paper you cited illustrates how people are now trying to conceptualise the hierarchy of contraints that guide development. So Brakefield distinguishes between absolute physical constraints imposed by the material world and generative constraints imposed by the vagaries of a genetic history.

He also talks about morphospaces - convergent evolution - which to me is just another level of the constraints hiearachy, the one due to the structuration of eco-systems. Ecological niches in other words.

Semiotics recognises yet a further hierarchy in the nature of the constraints (another kind of change going on apart from general spatiotemporal scale). You have the Peircean levels of icon, index and symbol - a hierarchy of the epistemic cut itself.

So the idea of downward causality - the top-down action of constraints - is itself a complex and still developing story.

We are dealing here with at least two kinds of hierarchies.

There is the kind that runs from the general physical state of the universe down to the particular developmental history of some organism - so from the laws of nature down to the contingencies of a specific individual.

Then also the kind of "constraint on dimensionality itself" needed to create the kind of sharp hardware/software divide, or code/meaning divide, that is the basis of the epistemic cut/semiotic story. So that gives us a hierarchy like the increasing constraint seen as we go from 3D cells, to 2D membranes, to 1D microtubules, to zero-D pores.

At some point in this kind of simple dimensional constraint - a direct physical constraint on reaction mechanics, on rate dependent material processes - there is the sharp transition to formal meaning. Suddenly a receptor becomes a lock and key mechanism that functions as an informational symbol. Or a codon comes to stand for an amino acid. Or a word comes to represent a constraint on the freedom of our ideas (or more correctly, our anticipatory states).

So yeah, I see virtually nothing in Chomsky's writings that reflects this kind deep detail. Some of what he says is certainly compatible with it of course. He sometimes waves his hands in the general direction.
 
  • #454
bohm2 said:
By the way, I thought this was interesting piece in a Biosemiotics journal...

I see Biolinguistics has an article on this also in the current issue...

Signs Pointing in a New Direction: A Biosemiotic Framework for Biolinguistics
Liz Stillwaggon Swan
http://www.biolinguistics.eu/index.php/biolinguistics/issue/current/showToc

a distinction between the two fields can be identified with regard to their respective methodological foci: While biolinguistics focuses on human language and tries to embed it conceptually and empirically among grander patterns in the natural world, biosemiotics focuses more fundamentally on sign processes in the living world, of which human language is but one example.

Oh dear, Hauser is now a cautionary tale, even if it does not seem clear what he actually did yet...

Swiss zoologist Heini K.P. Hediger, whose work goes a long way in explaining what went so horribly wrong in the lab of former Harvard primatologist Marc Hauser, a salient example of observer bias based on strongly wished for results,

If you want a more populist treatment, there is Terrence Deacon's new book - Incomplete Nature: How Mind Emerged from Matter.

From a review...

In his approach to the question of how sentience emerged from "dumb" and "numb" matter, Mr. Deacon mobilizes some radically new ideas, taking us back to thermodynamics to show how it might have happened. His key argument, developed over several hundred pages, centers on what he calls a "teleo-dynamic" system—a self-organizing system that "promotes its own persistence and maintenance" by modifying itself "to more effectively utilize supportive extrinsic conditions." He suggests how such a system might spontaneously arise out of thermodynamic processes, as predicted by chaos theory.

Living organisms are such self-organizing teleodynamic systems, and they have a key property. He calls this the absential. An absential is a phenomenon "whose existence is determined with respect to an . . . absence." This sounds somewhat opaque but captures something essential to mind. In the push-pull universe of ¬mechanical causation, only that which is present shapes the course of events. In our lives, by contrast, we are always taking account of things that are no longer present or not yet present or that may never come to pass. Thus "absentials" include our beliefs, the norms to which we subscribe and those great silos of possibility such as "tomorrow" and "next year."

But absentials long precede human consciousness, Mr. Deacon claims. All "teleodynamic systems" are shaped and defined, in great part, by the constraints placed on their development. The constraints are evident in the directed development of organisms or the limited patterns of behavior they may exhibit: Living matter is, as it were, "railroaded" along certain paths. It is through these constraints that, ultimately, "that which is not" asserts its power. Mind emerged not from matter, Mr. Deacon concludes, but from the constraints on matter. These constraints then shaped the emergence of brand-new "higher level" properties—mind and thought—that are not susceptible to reduction.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204618704576642991109496396.html

So you see, things are beginning to move at a fast pace on the semiotics front.

The systems view is being driven by a connection to a generalised theory of symbols/semiosis on the one hand, and a generalised theory of dissipative structure thermodynamics on the other. These are the two essential aspects of the one larger story. The formal and material causes of consciousness.
 
  • #455
This site gives links with many anti-nativist stances that question Chomsky's stuff:

Could Chomsky be Wrong?
http://www.timothyjpmason.com/WebPages/LangTeach/CounterChomsky.htm

I'm actually surprised of the opposition to his stuff. Maybe it was because I was always a nativist. I think it's because I was always convinced by pro-nativist arguments who argue that,

there is no known process, either in biology or in cognition, that literally amounts to learning in the traditional 'instructive' sense, that is, to a transfer of structure from the environment to the organism.

I do think Pinker (who I also find very easy to understand) raises some good points against Chomsky's saltatory evolution/genetic monster stuff (e.g. very rapid evolutionary and novel change) but I still think the language/math/cognitive abilities in humans are qualitatively different than any other cognitive systems in other animals/other primates, so I find Chomsky's arguments stronger. I mean just think what we are capable of doing compared to our nearest ancestor. There's just no comparison. And as I much as I dislike the hairless, linguist, ground chimps of which I am a member, I can't help but notice this difference. Berwick and Chomsky argue for this qualitative difference when they write:
Notice that there is no room in this picture for any precursors to language – say a language-like system with only short sentences. There is no rationale for postulation of such a system: to go from seven-word sentences to the discrete infinity of human language requires emergence of the same recursive procedure as to go from zero to infinity, and there is of course no direct evidence for such “protolanguages.”
The Biolinguistic Program: The Current State of its Evolution and Development
http://www.punksinscience.org/klean...L/material/Berwick-Chomsky_Biolinguistics.pdf
 
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  • #456
apeiron said:
The context was Chomsky's claims to be evo-devo, yet he is still bringing up these hopeful monster genetic scenarios.

Is evo-devo incompatible with saltational evolution or hopeful monsters? Here's an interesting paper on the topic:
In recent years evo-devo, hand in hand with QTL analyses, demonstrated that novel morphological forms in evolution can result from changes in just a few genes of large effect (Doebley et al. 1997; Wang et al. 1999, 2005; Gailing and Bachmann 2000; Moritz and Kadereit 2001), rather than many genes of small effect as implicated by gradualistic scenarios...Evo-devo clearly paved the way for a revival of saltational evolution. The first attempt to resurrect hopeful monsters by an early ‘‘evo-devonian’’ (Gould 1977a), however, largely failed (reviewed by Theißen 2006). It is remarkable, therefore, that the next major attempts to bring hopeful monsters back to the stage of evolutionary biology were inspired mainly by paleobotanical evidence.
Saltational evolution: hopeful monsters are here to stay
http://www.evolocus.com/Publications/Theissen2009.pdf

Another interesting PhD thesis taking this saltational argument on this topic:
Following Chomsky (1988, 2005); Crow (2002); Eldredge (1996); Fodor (2008); Gilbert et al. (1996); Gould (1989, 2000); Maresca and Schwartz (2006); Piattelli-Palmarini (1989); Rosselló and Martín (2006), I argue that not one of the underlying mechanisms that are posited as necessary to support the language faculty lends itself to an adaptationist explanation.
A Saltational Approach for the Evolution of Human Cognition and Language
http://www.lkse.net.au/PhDThesis.pdf
 
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  • #457
bohm2 said:
Is evo-devo incompatible with saltational evolution or hopeful monsters? Here's an interesting paper on the topic:

There is a difference between evo-devo saltation (as described in Lanyon's paper for instance) and remarks Chomsky has made about his hopeful monster.

Evo-devo says rapid change is possible because of natural selection acting on control genes. So this is still "graduationalism" in the sense that selection acts on particular traits at a population level. The only real difference is that the change that results is non-linear rather than linear.

Whereas Chomsky is claiming for some reason that saltation involved a single individual and a massive mutation event. This altered individual then bred back into its population pool and the trait was so dominant that all others became equally endowed.

It is such a bizarre thing to say that it makes you think either Chomsky has no clue about biology, or he is being deliberately provocative for some obscure reason.

As Lanyon's paper argues, if brain change was critical, then the evidence shows that many genes got adjusted. So it was never about a single critical mutation. Chomsky's hopeful monster must have been struck by a whole constellation of cosmic rays that magically reset a whole array of epigenetic factors in a single blast. Or in other words, his nutty story is even more nutty.

Lanyon says...

Cáceres et al. (2003) find that approximately 90% of the genes that are involved in building the primate brain are more highly expressed in humans.
 
  • #458
bohm2 said:
I still don't understand that part about heirarchical constraints...

Another good primer on the basic issues is this chapter, Top-Down Causation and Autonomy in Complex Systems, by Alicia Juarrero...

http://www.olek.waw.pl/inne/1357/Murphy97863.pdf#page=83

So dealing with the basic semiotic mechanism that is at the heart of the successive evolutionary revolutions of genes and words - what Pattee is dealing with in his epistemic cut, or Rosen is dealing with in his MR systems, etc - this is how Juarrero describes it...

Biological hereditary functions thus represent yet another novel way of integrating organizational structure. With the appearance of the genetic network, function becomes structure (Haken 1983): the product of previous first-order context-sensitive constraints becomes phylogenetically frozen into a structure and encapsulated as a higher-level second-order context-sensitive constraint. Because of the additional measure of decoupling accomplished by this novel level of integration between two different types of functional components, Ruiz-Mirazo and colleagues (2004) identify the appearance of this phenomenon with the emergence of what we can call the strong autonomy of biological systems...

...this more recent evolutionary breakthrough, I suppose, also brought with it a new type of
semiosis based on human symbolic language
and communication with a higher level translation code. In this manner an additional regulatory function was brought inside the system dynamics and modularized – and its subject freed even further from outside direction and control. In other words, because the criteria on the basis of which the top-down selection process is carried out are partitioned in terms of goals appropriate to the higher level, an even greater decoupling from energetic forces appeared with the emergence of the human mind – with selfconsciousness, qualia, and the realm of the linguistically symbolic.

Her book, Dynamics in Action, is worth reading (and there is now some controversy over how much Deacon has rehashed the ideas of others like Juarrero without sufficient attribution :frown:).

For a summary version, see...
http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/pub/Juarrero(2000)Dynmcs_Action(ECO).pdf
 
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  • #459
apeiron said:
There is a difference between evo-devo saltation (as described in Lanyon's paper for instance) and remarks Chomsky has made about his hopeful monster.

Evo-devo says rapid change is possible because of natural selection acting on control genes. So this is still "graduationalism" in the sense that selection acts on particular traits at a population level. The only real difference is that the change that results is non-linear rather than linear.

Whereas Chomsky is claiming for some reason that saltation involved a single individual and a massive mutation event. This altered individual then bred back into its population pool and the trait was so dominant that all others became equally endowed.

Even though some of Lanyon's quotes seem sympathetic to Chomsky's view (see below), I don't understand why Chomsky thinks this is the case? I mean, one could hold for rapid saltatory evolution but without the hopeful monster stuff, I think. Do you know what are his reasons for favouring this view?

A single mutation can easily be incorporated into a population by crossbreeding with the parent population to produce novel phenotypes in just one generation(Ackermann et al., 2006).

A mutation arising in a single male can spread rapidly through sexual selection within a small group, which would have isolated itself from the main group. Crow (2002) also argues that this single mutation has led to the brain asymmetries related to language.
 
  • #460
bohm2 said:
I mean, one could hold for rapid saltatory evolution but without the hopeful monster stuff, I think. Do you know what are his reasons for favouring this view?

I have absolutely no clue why Chomsky does things the way he does, other than the fact that he has clearly been well rewarded for doing so. A Skinnerian would explain superstitious behaviour in terms of ordinary operant conditioning. :smile:

Perhaps he has made an art-form of social boundary maintenance - he is great at creating a zone of incomprehension to mark the limits of a field of academic inquiry.

Like Freud and other charismatic leaders, at some point you are forced to decide whether you are fundamentally for him, or against him, as the irrationality marking the boundary of Chomsky's kingdom leaves no other choice.

And either reaction serves his purposes. Having a horde of angry enemies is as important to your reputation as having the band of devoted followers, always ready to quaff the Kool-Aid. You need both the action and the reaction to keep you perennially in the limelight of discussion.

Chomsky's even more famous political views shows he has a social talent for controversy. And it is the same tactic at work as far as I can see.

There is stuff - like this hopeful monster nonsense - you just have to swallow to join his club. And it is probably made deliberately uncomfortable. Think of it as a hazing ritual, or a cult. The nonsense does not allow you to straddle the divide in a way a reasonable person might want to. And once you have chosen to cross a divide marked by this unreason, it becomes very difficult to return. You have been cut off from your family and your only choice becomes an over-identification with the teachings of the master.

The master of course then always talks in confusing and opaque ways, so that you also get the feeling it is your failing that his teachings are not more clear. You must try harder to believe young grasshopper!
 
  • #461
apeiron said:
There is stuff - like this hopeful monster nonsense - you just have to swallow to join his club. And it is probably made deliberately uncomfortable. Think of it as a hazing ritual, or a cult. The nonsense does not allow you to straddle the divide in a way a reasonable person might want to. And once you have chosen to cross a divide marked by this unreason, it becomes very difficult to return. You have been cut off from your family and your only choice becomes an over-identification with the teachings of the master.

The master of course then always talks in confusing and opaque ways, so that you also get the feeling it is your failing that his teachings are not more clear. You must try harder to believe young grasshopper!

I have no clue what you're saying. Maybe it's because this isn't really my field? Personally, I find Chomsky's philosophy pretty easy to understand, although Pinker's stuff is easier. Fodor is far more difficult. I still don't understand why he favours that 'hopeful monster" stuff but given that he's a nativist with respect to language he does offer an argument as I pointed above:

Notice that there is no room in this picture for any precursors to language – say a language-like system with only short sentences. There is no rationale for postulation of such a system: to go from seven-word sentences to the discrete infinity of human language requires emergence of the same recursive procedure as to go from zero to infinity, and there is of course no direct evidence for such “protolanguages.”

Which part of this argument do you not agree with? I mean how does a cognitive system go from a few (other animals/ancestors) to infinite? Both with respect to linguistic and mathematical stuff?
 
  • #462
bohm2 said:
I mean how does a cognitive system go from a few (other animals/ancestors) to infinite? Both with respect to linguistic and mathematical stuff?

We've already discussed the singing ape and vocal tract constraint hypothesis that would have produced a recursive phonology. That would be a gradual evolutionary change happening over perhaps 100,000 years or more.

Then the next step is the taking over of that phonal technology by semiotic mechanism and cultural evolution. More simply put, vocalisation became symbolic and H.sap took off, probably in saltatory fashion in just a few thousand years.

So first the steady exaptation, Gould's spandrel, in the evolution of fancy expressive calls. Then the sudden cultural/mental explosion once a grammatical language got invented for coding socially-useful ideas.
 
  • #463
That option might be viable for one who favours an environmental (importance of culture, etc.) approach but not one who espouses a nativist or "language instinct" position, like Chomsky. As I wrote above:
but given that he's a nativist with respect to language
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to favour Chomsky's versus Pinker's nativist position.
 
  • #464
bohm2 said:
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to favour Chomsky's versus Pinker's nativist position.

Yeah, I can see that there are so many facts in its support.
 
  • #465
apeiron said:
Yeah, I can see that there are so many facts in its support.

I provided 2 reviews on this issue above in the Susan J. Lanyon and Thesissen piece. Inside those there are many references. Lanyon's major argument is that gradual change is not consistent with the paleontological evidence. This is not to say that in the nativist camp, this is more popular than Pinker's gradualist approach. It's not, but it seems to be becoming more popular not less popular, if one accepts Lanyon's arguments. But irrespective of some increase in popularity, the issue is the paleontological evidence. Those "facts" do not strengthen the gradualist approach, or so argues Lanyon and provides many references.
 
  • #466
Just to add some terminology here so there's no confusion about what nativists like Chomsky are saying, here's 2 interesting quotes hi-liting the difference between E-language versus I-language (and why only the latter is a valid/scientific study of human language). That issue of Platonism is also discussed in the second quote:
According to Chomsky, E-languages, due to their ephemeral nature, are not appropriate objects for scientific study in terms of their evolution, which is purely historical. In fact, Chomsky (2005) believes that we should not even use the term ‘evolution’ when we speak about cultural artefacts belonging to humans–more specifically, E-languages. Along similar lines, Mendíl-Giró (2006) is concerned with the notion of evolution of language as a social object. He questions the analogy of the evolution of language with Darwinian gradual change leading to improvement with the elimination of undesirable elements. This incongruent notion of languages (as E-languages) having evolved as adaptive systems for better communication, leads to untenable assumptions about linguistic change (Mendíl-Giró, 2006). Rather than focusing on historical changes in E-language and how they have evolved, he argues that we should concentrate on the evolution of I-language, which can be thought of as a linguistic species, with each member’s language organ, or phenotype, built by both the human genotype and developmental processes...Anderson and Lightfoot (2002) believe that arguments that follow the gradualist approach for the evolution of language, that is, from the simple to the complex, can be seen as left-overs from nineteenth century thinking, where languages were treated as external objects and evolved law-like, with directionality. The focus was then, as now, on the products of human behaviour, rather than the states and properties of the mind/brain that give rise to those products.
A Saltational Approach for the Evolution of Human Cognition and Language
http://www.lkse.net.au/PhDThesis.pdf

Collins explains this part and the issue of Platonism by using analogy from physics:
Every theory, we may say, has an infinite import. This is because the very notion of explanation is modal insofar as it must support counterfactuals. Thus, a law does not describe phenomena but tells us what will occur under any conditions that satisfy the properties the theory posits. For example, Newton’s laws don’t purport to describe our solar system (unlike Kepler’s ‘laws’), but instead tell us what will occur in any circumstances that are covered by the concepts of classical mass and force, which our solar system happens to realize (within certain parameters — forget about twentieth century developments). In this sense, Newton’s laws tell us about infinitely many possible systems, even though our universe is finite (we presume). The same holds in the case of linguistics. A formal theory tells us about infinitely many possible states the human mind/brain can fall into, without committing itself to the idea that the mind/brain is infinite, or, of course, that there are infinitely many sentences anywhere at all, not even in Plato’s heaven. To be sure, we need to employ the notion of an infinity of expressions, in Chomsky’s sense, much as we are required to think about infinitely many states of any physical system (theorized, say, in terms of Lagrangians or Hamiltonians). My present point is merely that such notions, while essential in the modal sense explained above, don’t attract our ontological commitment, at least not if we are working within the theory (cf. Feferman’s 1998 position on the relation between science and mathematics). If all this is so, linguistics looks to be in the same boat as any other science.
A Question of Irresponsibility: Postal, Chomsky, and Gödel
http://www.biolinguistics.eu/index.php/biolinguistics/article/view/71/97
 
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  • #467
bohm2 said:
I provided 2 reviews on this issue above in the Susan J. Lanyon and Thesissen piece. Inside those there are many references. Lanyon's major argument is that gradual change is not consistent with the paleontological evidence.

But I have always said this - all the available evidence is that the human mind came on suddenly and language was the key.

The difference is that Lanyon offers no actual theory of what happened (hers is just a review of the evidence that something did) and Chomsky flaps his hands about, talking about some hominid getting struck by cosmic rays and sprouting a recursion module.

I instead argue the case that is consistent with the evidence - the one that sees first the gradual biological development of the underpinning phonal hardware followed by the very swift social evolution of the semiotic software to exploit the existing neurology in an entirely new way.

So saltatory change is not in dispute. And Lanyon does a good job on knocking down the various biologically-rooted stories on how the human mental change could have occurred - the theory of mind module and other such fantasies popular in evo-psych circles.

But Lanyon (who after all is no particular expert) does not even consider the alternative story based on a Vygotskian view of language and mind. So there is no argument there to either accept or reject.

Granted that the emergence of the human mind looks to be a saltatory phenomenon, there are then three hypotheses going around.

1) There was some biological trait being actively selected which led to a radical neurological breakthrough (the general evo-psch view that fails for the reasons Lanyon mentions).

2) There was instead a radical breakthrough in evolutionary mechanism itself - the emergence of a new level of the epistemic cut/semiotic mechanism that is basic to life/mind as a phenomenon. Words, like genes, can encode the general group-level constraints that act on the development of particular individuals, so setting the scene for the explosive sociocultural evolution of the human mind.

This new phase of evolution looks "saltatory" - but only because the pace of sociocultural evolution is perhaps thousands of times faster.

3) The Chomskyian view of saltation which argues that because a "biological selection" argument does not cut it, then the biological change must have been a naked, unsupported, mutation event - the hopeful monster hypothesis.

This view does not fit with normal biology. Despite the attempts of Chomskyites to jump aboard the evo-devo movement, it does not accord with evo-devo principles. Even you appear to discount Chomsky's hopeful monster story.

Nor do the Chomskyites offer any good argument against the Vygotskian/semiotic alternative. Instead, they try to prevent it even being discussed by claiming a-priori that E-language is "ephemeral".

There is then the issue of "other factors". The standard evolutionary view emphasises Darwinian selection and so material/historical causality. But causality includes formal and final cause too.

Chomsky is hardly unique in pointing this out.

Evo-devo of course now recognises this with its talk of structural attractors, dissipative structure theory, and other top-down, rather Platonic-sounding, notions. Biosemiotics is even more explicit in modelling the role of top-down causality.

But where Chomsky differs is apparently trying to shift the full burden of explanation over to that side of things. He wants the history of material and efficient causes (the "gradual" selectionist story") to be reduced to some a-causal accident (the hopeful monster mutant who arose for no good reason by complete chance) so that formal/final cause (in the guise of "optimal computation" or such-like) becomes the whole story.

This is why Chomsky is viewed correctly as a Platonist.

I'm not sure in what way he could now be called a nativist as he has no story at all on how the semiotic machinery of language is biologically innate - not if he is arguing for this causally unbalanced hypothesis of hopeful monster~optimal computation. Where is the evidence that supports it?

Whereas the evo-devo/biosemiotic approach can point to the generally recursive/hierarchical nature of brain architecture, the novel constraint created by a serial/digital vocal tract, the social communicative value of phonal expressive calls, etc.

The true nativists in this discussion are the ones like Lieberman that can talk about the actual evolutionary biology, not the ones who are having to resort to "rabbit out of a hat" tales about hopeful monsters.
 
  • #468
apeiron said:
I instead argue the case that is consistent with the evidence - the one that sees first the gradual biological development of the underpinning phonal hardware followed by the very swift social evolution of the semiotic software to exploit the existing neurology in an entirely new way.

From what I recall the papers I linked do offer many arguments against both these positions (e.g. underpinning phonal hardware and social/cultural evolution). To me the most reasonable approach is the following position advocated by Bickerton:
Although claims for both uniquely-signed and uniquely-spoken origins have been made, support for either of them seems at best dubious, and I see no reason why one cannot remain agnostic on...pending more decisive evidence. My own preference, for what it’s worth, is that language (or I should say protolanguage) began as a free-for-all, catch-as-catch-can mode that utilized sounds, signs, pantomime and any other available mechanism that would carry intention and meaning, and that it only gradually focused on the vocal mode, due to the latter’s greater utility.
Bickerton also hi-lites some problems with treating language as evolving out of prior means of communication or social interaction, etc.

Langauge evolution: A brief guide for linguists
http://www.ucd.ie/artspgs/langevo/langevobriefly.pdf

apeiron said:
This view does not fit with normal biology. Despite the attempts of Chomskyites to jump aboard the evo-devo movement, it does not accord with evo-devo principles. Even you appear to discount Chomsky's hopeful monster story.

It's Chomsky's emphasis on just recursion alone that seems hard to swallow, I think. But I'm pretty sympathetic to Chomsky's argument against adaptionalism and his emphasis on physical constraints as argued here:
It does seem very hard to believe that the specific character of organisms can be accounted for purely in terms of random mutation and selectional controls. I would imagine that biology of 100 years from now is going to deal with evolution of organisms the way it deals with evolution of amino acids, assuming that there is just a fairly small space of physically possible systems that can realize complicated structures.(Chomsky, 1982, 23)...Citing the work of D'Arcy Thompson, Chomsky points out that "many properties of organisms, like symmetry, for example, do not really have anything to do with a specific selection but just with the ways in which things can exist in the physical world."
Cartesian Biolinguistics
http://www.punksinscience.org/kleanthes/courses/UCY10S/IBL/material/Boeckx_Cartesian.pdf
apeiron said:
2) There was instead a radical breakthrough in evolutionary mechanism itself - the emergence of a new level of the epistemic cut/semiotic mechanism that is basic to life/mind as a phenomenon. Words, like genes, can encode the general group-level constraints that act on the development of particular individuals, so setting the scene for the explosive sociocultural evolution of the human mind.
You equate cultural change with evolution or do you mean something different? Consider Bickerton's argument:
Of course it (language evolution) has stopped, because the biological evolution of humans (saving the odd minor development like the spread of lactose tolerance or proneness to sickle-cell anemia) has, to all intents and purposes, stopped also. What is happening (and has been happening for perhaps as many as a hundred thousand years) is cultural change (sometimes misleadingly described as ‘‘cultural evolution’’); within the envelope of the language faculty, languages are recycling the limited alternatives that this biological envelope makes available. It should always be a warning signal when writers engage in the kind of sleight-of-hand that persistently switches between ‘‘language’’ and ‘‘languages’’; Culotta and Hanson do this in the sentence immediately following the cited one. But language evolution and changes in languagES operate on different timescales, involve different factors, and follow different courses to different ends (or rather, to the end of a complete language faculty in the first case and to no particular end in the second). To muddle them merely confuses an already sufficiently confused field.
P.S. I read that A. Jaerrero piece you linked and I'm about to read a piece by Butterfield that seems interesting (it wasn't):

Laws, Causation and Dynamics at Different Levels
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/8745/1/DynLevelsRoySoc.pdf
 
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  • #469
bohm2 said:
It's Chomsky's emphasis on just recursion alone that seems hard to swallow, I think. But I'm pretty sympathetic to Chomsky's argument against adaptionalism and his emphasis on physical constraints as argued here:

The Boeckx article is a good read. Nice on the philosophical history. Amusing in the conceit that the minimalist program may discover general cognitive primitives - making Chomskian linguistics again the heart of the cogsci revolution!

The point is that either/or approaches here are always going to distort the science. It is quite clear that adaptationalism can't be "everything". But then neither can rationalism. Instead, these are the two extremes that then allow a complexity to arise between them (the usual systems point of view).

So that is my problem with Chomsky - the extent to which he tries to make it all about rationalism (which leads to his programmatic rejection of E-language, mutterings about hopeful monsters, vague utterances about "other factors", etc). And equally it is why I would have a problem with SR behaviourism, or Dawkins/Dennett style neo-Darwinism. People are always splitting into opposing camps (representing the thesis and antithesis) and so failing to model the synthesis - the actual way extremes get mixed to form the resulting system.

So language evolution (and the saltatory mental change it created in H.sap, as Boeckx agrees) is going to be a mix of rationalist and empiricist factors - formal and material causes. This is just what systems are.

The question then is what are the forms that constrained language evolution? And have the Chomskyites identified the right targets for research?

Generally Chomsky's big thing has been hierarchical organisation (as the deep "cognitive" structure behind the "superficial" surface structure of the linear sentence).

But I keep pointing out that the hierarchy is not special to language. It is in fact the most general kind of organisational form. Hierarchical causality underpins the whole of reality in the systems view. And it certainly is the general form when it comes to brain architecture. So of course hierarchy is a big and foundational aspect of language, but it is not specific to language. It was not what was new when language first evolved!

Evo-devo suggests other targets for the significant change perhaps. At least, evo-devo as Boeckx understands it - the kind that focuses on self-organised criticality and edge of chaos type dynamical phenomenon. So maybe the essential rational form is something like Kauffman's autocatalytic sets?

Well yes, this kind of "Turing constraint" is important to the evo-devo approach. Creative self-organisation and dissipative structure are exactly the kind of potentials that life harnesses. This level of chemico-physical form is the raw material of biotic systems. But Boeckx is completely missing the more important realisation of theoretical biology - the still higher laws of form described by semiotics, modelling relations theory and the epistemic cut. All that Santa Fe brand complexity stuff, and Prigogine dissipative structure stuff, is a theory of nativist form for the physico-chemical realm of nature. Life/mind depends on a still more highly specified level of form.

The key, as I've said plenty of times, is the ability to construct constraints. Life/mind has semiotic mechanisms like genes and words (and in a lesser way, membranes, pores, axons, spikes) that can harness the Santa Fe/Prigogine/Turing style dynamical emergence. So if we are talking about embracing rational laws of form as a rightful part of science here, then that is what semiotics is about. It identifies the thing that is actually new and so marks a sharp evo-devo transition between the non-living and the living, the mindless and the mindful.

Semiotics is not the only candidate for the forms that define bios of course. The Bayesian paradigm has also emerged as something that seems very central to understanding life, and more especially mind. It captures the anticipatory aspect of any semiosis, and also roots the semiosis in something concretely measurable - information/entropy.

So there is a natural convergence going on there at the moment. Anticipation and constraint go together because a reduction in surprisal is dichotomously also a maximisation of behavioural variety. That is, the better you get at predicting the world, the more tightly defined become its surprises, and so in turn the more precisely you can learn the something new it takes to refine your future predictions.

Anyway, this illustrates - Boeckx's point - that none of us are naked adaptationalists here. It is basic to the systems' point of view that we must also identify the laws of form. But the system's POV also stresses that the laws of form are themselves a hierarchy. There are some very general laws (like hierarchical organisation), and then the more specified ones that identify the essential transitions, such as the kind that produce phase transitions in condensed matter physics, or separate life from non-life.

So what of language evolution? What, if anything, are the essential novelties that led to that saltatory change? What are its specific rational forms?

Recursion is not special to speech. But a strong separation between what Chomsky calls E- and I-language is. So it is in fact the relationship between the two that should be the focus of attention. It is the semiotic interaction that arises between the hierarchical (holistic) organisation and the serial (digitally-constained) expression that is the key. This is the justification for vocal tract/phonology arguments about language evolution. The first thing that had to happen was exactly this kind of serial constraint on hierarchical output.

But there is more. The step from phonology to semantics is the tricky one. And it contains the further question of whether this step was achieved mainly by genetics or by cultural learning. Although in fact - from a "laws of form" perspective - this does not really matter so much. The answer is that it is going to be a bit of both most likely. And either way, it is the organising form that matters, not the material, the medium, in which the change became encoded - biological or cultural evolution. If you are indeed embracing rationalism, then the nature vs nurture dichotomy has even less force because the action lies now somewhere more "Platonic". :smile:

Now there are two aspects to the semantics of speech - the way words, mere noises, encode meanings. And in good systems fashion, one is local, one global. Or one lexical, one syntactical.

So you have the lexical. Words, through associative learning, come to stand for particular meanings - they are symbols that reliably constrain our state of thought (or more properly, given a Bayesian perspective, constrain our state of expectation). A word like "cat" or "blue" exerts a top-down boundedness on our current thinking. And then words can be freely combined to construct even more constrained states of thought - as of course the mimimalist program recognises with its focus on the operation of merge.

So part of UG is this "universal lexicon", this ability to construct bottom-up the states of mental constraint, Bayesian expectation, that normally, in animals, only exists as top-down hierarchical organisation.

That is a genuine evolutionary novelty. It is not completely novel because, as said, genes also do the semiotic trick of constructing constraints. But it does seem a purer, less restricted, form of semiosis, or symbolism. And it may have its own completely novel aspects. Well, that is the kind of research question that can be posed once it is accepted that we are indeed exploring the laws of form, and their hierarchical complexification.

But then there is the global aspect of semantics - which the minimalist progam would appear to hope to cover with the operation of move. And this is the way that there is organising meaning at the level of sentences. Or as Chomskyites would prefer to see it, I-language.

To cut a long story short, my view is that the saltatory step here was the evolution of subject-verb-object sentence structure. Because what this did was encode the notion of efficient cause. It created the crisp mental habit of reducing reality to statements of cause and effect logic - tales of who did what to whom.

The animal mind is holistic in modelling reality. It does of course pick out efficient cause - that is what SR Behaviourism was all about. But it only does this in a contextual or situational fashion. So efficient cause remains entangled with an accompanying set of material, formal and final causes so far as the animal is concerned. A symbol like the ringing of a bell only has a meaning in a particular context (which includes final causes like whether you happen to be hungry or not, as well as other aspects of context like a history of reward in a similar experimental set-up).

So - again as Boeckx recognises - the new trick was to be able to break out of the animal mode of thought by being able to construct generalisations. Generalised models of efficient causality.

The question then arises whether this Rubicon step was a matter of biological or cultural evolution? The key thing is that this is a rational principle (what could be more rational than going back to Aristotle's foundational analysis of causality?). So what matters here is to identify it as the general crucial novelty in the human story. But then the question of whether the step was genetic or memetic is a valid subsidiary research question of interest to the paleolinguist.

So does the brain seem innately wired for subject~object distinctions? Or is the formal idea of efficient cause - the Newtonian idea that there is always a pusher and a pushee - just extremely learnable because the brain was preadapted to making long-range phonal connections?

I think the current evidence suggests that the brain is genetically more general purpose, and the habit of forming subject-verb-object structure sentences was a pretty sudden cultural invention. It crystalised a way of viewing and remembering the world that was so powerful that the small group of H.saps who developed it, took off and never looked back. Though as a meme, no reason why it would not have spread through social contact and migration.

So to sum up, rationalism is as essential to the full evolutionary view taken by systems science and theoretical biology as empiricism. The holistic view of causes demands that we seek the laws of form - the universal constraints of reality - as much as its fundamental materials, the stuff out of which complexly ordered realities get constructed.

There is then going to be a hierarchy of the laws of form. There is an emergent story in which simplicity develops into complexity. And novelties in form, in the nature of constraints, will mark the major observed transitions.

As we agree, the animal/human transition is a major one. So we should expect novel constraints to be one half of the explanation (the other half being the material/effective causes beloved of neo-Darwinism).

Chomsky certainly puts forward candidates for these novel forms. First UG, then principles and parameters, now the minimalist program. But Chomsky has always been hamstrung by his rationalist prejudices. He wants it to be the whole story (which become Platonism). And it has caused him to miss the aspects of formal organisation which are in fact the critical ones when it comes to life/mind. ie: the semiosis, the serial constraint, the epistemic cut, the Bayesian prediction.

But from an evolutionary perspective, we would expect to see a phonology-first emergence of a formal organisation (the serial constraint on hierarchical output) because otherwise how else could the necessary biological pre-adaptations be explained? The evolution of the vocal tract demands a theory, it can't be treated as a hopeful monster, and even a spandrel is pretty limp (the whole spandrel concept is weak, like all Gould's proto-evo-devo work really - again Boeckx is on the mark there).

Then the jump from phonal machinery to semantic/semiotic mechanism is a short one, in terms of further material change at least. But quickly revolutionary in terms of formal change of course. Suddenly H.sap had the machinery to construct words and sentences. To locally constrain states of thought to exact meanings, and to globally organise states of thought so that they articulated statements of efficient cause.

Suddenly you had a rational being (oh the irony!). Humans with the mental habit of viewing absolutely everything through the universal prism of cause and effect logic. And likewise, finding it hard not to reduce everything to just this one notion of cause.

The reason that there are not many systems scientists about is that the very tool of human thought - our SOV-based language - works against thinking in any other more holistic fashion.

And even the rationalists - those claiming to be investigating the laws of form - are still thinking in terms of efficient cause. Chomskyian UG is typical in talking about how hierarchical structure gets constructed from the bottom-up (when the brain itself is decomposing vague intentions into crisp hierarchical states of organisation, working from the top-down - again, the Bayesian view where global expectations constrain the information processing).

The very terms that Chomsky chooses - like I-language - betrays this basic misorientation. He sees the deep structure, ie: the global constraints of hierarchical form - as "inside". But to be more global - to be contextual and situational - the I-language has to be in fact "outside", larger in scale. It is a small but significant terminological confusion. It already sets a field on the wrong path.

Boeckx also gets things back to front with his hopeful claim that the minimalist program will prove to be foundational to the evo-devo rationalist project generally. The paleolinguistic question is certainly right at the heart of things - it is where material complexity, in the form of the human mind, is indeed the most complex. And a specific theory of the formal novelties is going to be required.

But it is hardly then foundational. Quite the reverse. Systems science, condensed matter physics, dissipative structure theory and other modelling discourses are going to provide the more general laws of form here. Then paleolinguistics has to pick up the story of the further specific laws that emerged at the crucial saltatory transition of grammatically-structured speech.
 
  • #470
bohm2 said:
Bickerton also hi-lites some problems with treating language as evolving out of prior means of communication or social interaction, etc.
You equate cultural change with evolution or do you mean something different? Consider Bickerton's argument:

I find Bickerton to be both usefully clear and quite disingenuous in his paper.

There is of course no actual argument made against cultural evolution here. And semiosis spells out just why words are like genes (as rate independent constraints on rate dependent dynamics). So human cultural evolution is literally evolution in the broad view taken in theoretical biology. There is a memory mechanism, a serial/digital code.

Even if you don't believe this, you at least have to make the actual argument, which Bickerton is not doing.

Same with many other parts of Bickerton's paper. For instance, he insists it is impossible for gradual change to cause sudden change. And yet has he never heard of gases turning into liquids turning into solids due to steady incremental temperature or pressure changes?

Faced with saltatory change, phase transition stories are thus precisely what we should be looking for - the sudden emergence of new global constraints in a system.

What do they say about drunks looking for their lost keys under lamp posts? If your models of causality are as scientifically limited as Bickerton's, then you are indeed going to fail to find what you seek.

[Edit: I should add that Bickerton is wrong to claim that biological evolution has stopped - remember this earlier discussion? https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3682901&postcount=312]
 
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  • #471
apeiron said:
[Edit: I should add that Bickerton is wrong to claim that biological evolution has stopped - remember this earlier discussion? https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3682901&postcount=312]

Yes, he should have been more precise and say there's no gross evolutionary changes, particularly with language. So, take a human infant from any part of the planet today or over the past ~50,000-100,000 years and bring them up in today's society. Do you think they would have any problems in learning the local language, going to school, etc? Are there any differences between the different world cultures with respect to lingustic abilities?

I'm sympathetic to Steven Pinker's quote here:
the universality of complex language is a discovery that fills linguists with awe. This is a primary reason for suspecting that it is “the product of a special human instinct rather than purely cultural invention.” Langauge then, unlike other cultural developments, is always highly sophisticated. “There are Stone Age societies, but there is no such thing as a Stone Age language.” He quotes anthropological linguist Edward Sapir, who declared, “When it comes to linguistic form, Plato walks with the Macedonian swineherd, Confucius with the head-hunting savage of Assam.”

The thing that is kind of interesting to me and also confuses me is this Peirce quote by Chomsky in the 1960s:
Man is "provided with certain natural beliefs that are true" because "certain uniformities prevail throughout the universe, and the reasoning mind is itself a product of this universe. These same laws are thus, by logical necessity, incorporated in his own being"...He held that innate limitations on admissible hypotheses are a precondition for successful theory construction, and that the “guessing instinct” that provides hypotheses makes use of inductive procedures only for “corrective action,” Peirce maintained in this lecture that the history of early science shows that something approximating a correct theory was discovered with remarkable ease and rapidity, on the basis of highly inadequate data, as soon as certain problems were faced; he noted “how few were the guesses that men of surpassing genius had to make before they rightly guessed the laws of nature.” And, he asked, “How was it that man was ever led to entertain that true theory? You cannot say that it happened by chance, because the chances are too overwhelmingly against the single true theory in the twenty or thirty thousand years during which man has been a thinking animal, ever having come into any man’s head.”...Continuing with Peirce: “Man’s mind has a natural adaptation to imagining correct theories of some kinds... If man had not the gift of a mind adapted to his requirements, he could not have acquired any knowledge...
Now, at first one would think that Chomsky is agreeing with Peirce, especially because he did/does believe that evolution of our higher cognitive structures like language/math/science may not be explained by natural selection alone but require as yet not understood physical principles/constraints/laws, etc. but he doesn't. For he writes:
But the fact that the mind is a product of natural laws does not imply that it is equipped to understand the laws or to arrive at them by "abduction". There would be no difficulty in designing a device (say, programming a computer) that is a product of natural law, but that, given data, will arrive at any arbitrary absurd theory to explain these data.
 
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  • #472
bohm2 said:
Are there any differences between the different world cultures with respect to lingustic abilities?

Surprisingly little given the degree of genetic change - which again suggests that the logical heart of language is more cultural than biological. SOV is more of an idea than a trait. :cool:

I see you instead want to insist that the genes involved in language/cognition must be then the part of the genome that in fact has remained stable in the face of continued change elsewhere.

But where is the evidence for that? And more tellingly, would a Chomskyite now have to argue that language/cognition is under strong selective pressure - sufficient to stabilise it at some pre-50kya setting? Or instead, that as a hopeful monster event, this part of the genome somehow got stuck, immune to further selective tuning?

Either way, the more you try to load onto the genetic basis, the more troubling the fact of continued evolution of the rest of the human genome must be. If our digestion, skin colour, muscle fibre composition, etc, are all easy to evolve, then why did cognitive abilities get frozen? What was stopping runaway improvements in working memory, critical learning periods, etc?

On the other hand, if the invention of SOV modelling of efficient causality was a one-time game changer, then it makes more sense that continued genetic change has not seen much change in base cognitive ability.

bohm2 said:
The thing that is kind of interesting to me and also confuses me is this Peirce quote by Chomsky in the 1960s:

I believe he says Peirce seems right about this ability of abduction, but his explanation of it does not hold.

And I agree. As already discussed, Peirce returns to his Unitarian roots and gets too mystic, touched by the finger of god, at this point.

But Chomsky's purpose is to then use this "mystery of abduction" to suggest that evolution works occasionally in a similar fashion - making its inexplicable abductive jumps in genetic design, its hopeful monsters, that are not random leaps in the dark but instead intelligent and fruitful guesses.

It is baloney. But there you are. Chomsky is pretty much all alone when it comes to his hopeful monsters view of genetics.
 
  • #473
Just to return to the mind-body problem here's an interesting quote from Penrose that seems in tune with Eddington's/McGinn's arguments:
(If) the phenomenon of consciousness (or mental experience) can arise only in the presence of some non-computational physical processes in the brain...(then)...one can presume...that such (putative) non-computational processes would also have to be inherent in the action of inanimate matter, since living human brains are ultimately composed of the same material, satisfying the same physical laws, as are the inaminate objects of the universe. We must therefore ask two things. First, why is it that the phenomenon of consciousness appears to occur, as far as we know, only in or relation to brains-although we should not rule out the possibility that consciousness might be present also in other appropriate physical systems? Second, we must ask how could it be that such a seemingly important (putative) ingredient as non-computational behaviour, presumed to be inherent-potentially, at least-in the actions of all material things, so far has entirely escaped the notice of physicists? No doubt the answer to the first question has something to do with the subtle and complex organization of the brain...with regard to the second question, we must indeed expect that vestiges of such non-computability should also be present, at some indiscernible level, in inaminate matter...For physics to be able to accommodate something as foreign to our current physical picture as is the phenomenon of consciousness, we must expect a profound change-one that alters the very underpinnings of our philosophical viewpoint as to the nature of reality.
Shadows of the mind
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gDb...nrose The phenomenon of consciousness&f=false
 
  • #474
bohm2 said:
Just to return to the mind-body problem here's an interesting quote from Penrose that seems in tune with Eddington's/McGinn's arguments:

...No doubt the answer to the first question has something to do with the subtle and complex organization of the brain...we must indeed expect that vestiges of such non-computability should also be present, at some indiscernible level, in inaminate matter...

Yes, some things have been clarified. Generally, our models of reality have to deal with both substance and form as fundamental issues. Reductionism does this by talking about local materials which have inherent properties, while the holistic or systems view of reality talks about local degrees of freedom in interaction with global bounding constraints.

So a panpsychist is reductionist in seeking an explanation to something "higher order" like complexity or mind in terms of the micro-scale properties of the material realm, while the equivalent systems project is pansemiosis - the search for the ultimately simple, yet essentially scalefree, description of the "localised degrees of freedom in interaction with global constraints" relationship.

Penrose starts out acknowledging the importance of formal cause - global organisation - but his thinking quickly collapses into the search for some panpsychic property of matter.

His "non-computability" is of course the same as Peirce's abduction in talking about the ability of minds to think holistically about causality. Computability is again just the world according to SOV logic - modelling in terms of efficient causality, simple deterministic cause-and-effect. And the "non-computable" part of thought is the abductive jump to general principles, such as axioms, which then can be tested against reality for their pragmatic value. Humans can cope with vagueness or indeterminacy as a starting point for forming a systems view of what is going on. Turing machines can't.

Penrose - a card-carrying Platonist - does try to make some kind of systems sense of the issue with his "three worlds/three mysteries" model of metaphysics. He creates a self-closing circle of the three realms of form, material and mind. He says each arises from some small part of the prior and then fully encompasses the latter. So mind arises from a small part of total material possibility, form arises from a small part of total mental possibility, and materiality arises from a small part of total formal possibility. You go round in a circle with each realm having a restricted starting point that then unfolds into a new species of causal action.

http://mind.ucsd.edu/papers/penrose/penrosehtml/penfig2.jpg

So this is beyond dualism, and is a triadic story (like Popper, and of course Peirce/hierarchy theory).

As a grand metaphysical view, it has the interesting ring of truth to it perhaps. It seems superficially attractive.

But consider what is actally going on. First it fails completely as a causal model. It is not telling us in what way each realm creates the next - in either a constructive or constraining fashion.

And then it only works at all by confounding the human creation of formal concepts (ie: epistemology, the modelling relation) with the actual existence of formal cause (ie: an ontological acceptance of the downward causality due to constraints). And also of course by accepting an ontological dualism of the mental and the material.

So (as befits a topologist :smile:) he posits three ontic realms - formal, material, mental - then glues them into a circle by an illegal splicing of the formal realm. The mind's epistemic generation of mathematical models gets discretely twisted into the ontic concept of formal causality so that the connection can be made back to the material realm.

Confused? Penrose certainly is.

The Peircean or systems view does it differently. All arises out of the one-ness (firstness) of vagueness, then via dichotomistic separation (secondness) becomes the triadic causal relationship of a hierarchy (thirdness).

So it is a developmental view rather than the circular or Ouroboros logic Penrose uses. And it is a causal view because you end up with global constraints in interaction with local degrees of freedom (as the formal and material "realms"). And then you get reality itself as that which arises due to the action of this causality on a ground of raw potential, or vagueness. So reality is just whatever crisply exists within the constrasting limits of upwards and downwards causes. And this reality spans the gamut from the simple to the complex.

Something further is then required to explain this spectrum. Which is where some kind of thermodynamics must come in. Complexity is tied to the dissipation of gradients. Negentropy is the partner of entropification.

Which gets us back to pansemiosis - the story of how constraints get constructed. This is something that happens over all scales, from the simple to the complex. And the "realm" of mind is semiosis at its most negentropic, at its most complex. The reductionist question that Penrose wants to ask then comes down to an understanding of semiotic mechanism - what is the "least" form it takes. When the material world is being organised by downwards constraint, what is the simplest possible example of this kind of interaction?

As said, reality has gone through some phase transitions so far as semiosis is concerned. You have a step from genomic to memetic semiosis. And an even bigger one from a-biotic to biotic semiosis (as in the step from non-living dissipative structures such as gyres to living ones such as cells). The project for pansemiosis is then to define the essential causal mechanism in a way so general that it can encompass all these complicating transitions.

Panpsychism? Well that has only ever proved to be a cul-de-sac of metaphysical thought. An easy and tempting path for the reductionist to head down. But it is a blind alley, leading nowhere.

Penrose tries to suggest there is a magic door out of this cul-de-sac - his topology cut-and-splice trick with epistemology/ontology which rotates you through human modelling and back out into formal cause behind the concealing cloak of a "third Platonic realm".

Shazzam, a theatrical wave of the wand, and you are stumbling blinking again into the street marked Materialism, ready for your next go-around of his Ouroboros coil.

A systems theorists instead says there are no "local properties", only a top-down restriction on degrees of freedom that thus creates degrees of freedom of some definite kind. The material "realm" is just as much an emergent aspect of reality as the global constraints which constitute "Plato's Heaven".

Which is not a bad thing, because all definite things are emergent in the systems view.
 
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  • #475
I never understood what is meant by the Platonic world. I always considered abstract objects like mathematical objects as mental stuff. So when Penrose writes this quote for me this seems more an argument for mathematical objects being innate and mental stuff:

There is perhaps something mysterious, however, in the fact that we do seem to know instinctively what the natural numbers actually are. For as children (or adults) we are provided with just a comparatively small number of descriptions as to what 'zero', 'one', 'two', 'three', etc., mean ('three oranges', 'one banana', etc.); yet, we can grasp the entire concept despite this inadequacy. In some Platonic sense, the natural numbers seem to be things that have an absolute conceptual existence independent of ourselves. Notwithstanding such human independence, we are able intellectually, to make contact with the actual natural-number concept from merely these vague and seemingly inadequate descriptions.
I mean except for being quite specific, this isn't different than the way internalists like Chomsky treat linguistic concepts:
The cognitive revolution of the 17th century also led to inquiry into the nature of concepts, with important contemporary implications, also insufficiently appreciated. Aristotle had recognized that the objects to which we refer in using language cannot be identified by their material substance. A house, he pointed out, is not merely a collection of bricks and wood, but is defined in part by its function and design: a place for people to live and store their possessions, and so on. In Aristotle’s terms, a house is a combination of matter and form. Notice that his account is metaphysical: he is defining what a house is, not the word or idea “house.” That approach led to hopeless conundrums. The ship of Theseus is a classic case that may be familiar from philosophy courses; Saul Kripke’s puzzle about belief is a modern variant. With the cognitive turn of the 17th century these questions were reframed in terms of operations of the mind: what does the word “house” mean, and how do we use it to refer. Pursuing that course we find that for natural language there is no word-object relation, where objects are mind-independent entities. That becomes very clear for Aristotle’s example, the word house, when we look into its meaning more closely. Its “form” in the Aristotelian sense is vastly more intricate than he assumed. Furthermore, the conundrums based on the myth of a wordobject relation dissolve, when viewed from this perspective, which I believe has ample empirical support...In all such cases, there is no mind-independent object, which could in principle be identified by a physicist, related to the name. As we proceed, we find much more intricate properties, no matter how simple the terms of language we investigate. As Hume and others recognized, for natural language and thought there is no meaningful word-object relation because we do not think or talk about the world in terms of mind-independent objects; rather, we focus attention on intricate aspects of the world by resort to our cognoscitive powers. Accordingly, for natural language and thought there is no notion of reference in the sense of the modern philosophical tradition, developed in the work of Frege, Peirce, Russell, Tarski, Carnap, Quine, and others, or contemporary theorists of reference: “externalists,” in contemporary terminology. These technical concepts are fine for the purpose for which they were originally invented: formal systems where the symbols, objects, and relations are stipulated. Arguably they also provide a norm for science: its goal is to construct systems in which terms really do pick out an identifiable mindindependent element of the world, like “neutron,” or “noun phrase.” But human language and thought do not work that way.
It's not surrprising that Chomsky thinks the two are related:
Nonetheless, it is interesting to ask whether this operation is language-specific. We know that it is not. The classic illustration is the system of natural numbers. That brings up a problem posed by Alfred Russell Wallace 125 years ago: in his words, the “gigantic development of the mathematical capacity is wholly unexplained by the theory of natural selection, and must be due to some altogether distinct cause,” if only because it remained unused. One possibility is that it is derivative from language. It is not hard to show that if the lexicon is reduced to a single element, then unbounded Merge will yield arithmetic. Speculations about the origin of the mathematical capacity as an abstraction from linguistic operations are familiar, as are criticisms, including apparent dissociation with lesions and diversity of localization. The significance of such phenomena, however, is far from clear; they relate to use of the capacity, not its possession. For similar reasons, dissociations do not show that the capacity to read is not parasitic on the language faculty.
Some simple evo-devo theses: how true might they be for language?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbRCMkWzPwuXNHJUgQd5ltgO76OQ4A&pli=1

To be honest, the more I read on this stuff, the more I'm persuaded by both the internalist and nativist view.
 
  • #476
bohm2 said:
I never understood what is meant by the Platonic world. I always considered abstract objects like mathematical objects as mental stuff.

But that quote from Penrose says the opposite.

In some Platonic sense, the natural numbers seem to be things that have an absolute conceptual existence independent of ourselves.

Even if the ontic status of the natural numbers (and other mathematical forms) is "conceptual", he is still claiming an ontic and not an epistemic distinction.

And I don't actually disagree with the idea that forms objectively exist in some fashion (as well as also having a separate epistemic existence as the models humans may create of them).

Rather what I was drawing attention to was the way Penrose does make the mistake of mind/matter dualism, that he does confuse the epistemic and the ontic in his characterisation of the "Platonic mathematical world" so as to set-up his triangular circuit, and he fails to take a systems-style view of the relationship between form and substance, such as for example Aristotle's doctrine of hylomorphic form.

The Aristotlean approach differs in crucial details, such as the fact that the only forms that "objectively exist" are the ones that are indeed materially possible. Penrose explicitly says that he sees all mathematical truths as "objectively existing", even if only a limited subset then are materially incarnated in the "physical world".

So these are not just minor quibbles.

You say you view abstract objects as just mental creations. That is fine as an epistemological view. We would say concrete objects - energy, particles, charge - are just as much free creations of the human mind.

But Platonism is about ontology. And it is just as big a metaphysical claim to say abstract objects don't exist as to assert they do. Neither view is uncontroversial. And a major part of the systems view is showing how forms can objectively exist as "constraints".

Calling them abstract objects creates the problem that it sounds as though you want to grant them material existence. But that is exactly - dichotomously - what they mustn't have. So instead we give them a name that makes it clear in what sense they exist. Ie: in the fashion of global constraints.

bohm2 said:
To be honest, the more I read on this stuff, the more I'm persuaded by both the internalist and nativist view.

I'm delighted.
 
  • #477
Chomsky really confuses me. Peerhaps you can clarify...

A house, he pointed out, is not merely a collection of bricks and wood, but is defined in part by its function and design: a place for people to live and store their possessions, and so on. In Aristotle’s terms, a house is a combination of matter and form.

Yes exactly. An object has four causes. There are its locally constructive causes - the material and the effective. Then there are also its global constraints, its top-down causes, of the formal and final.

Notice that his account is metaphysical: he is defining what a house is, not the word or idea “house.” That approach led to hopeless conundrums. The ship of Theseus is a classic case that may be familiar from philosophy courses; Saul Kripke’s puzzle about belief is a modern variant.

Err, how is the ship of Theseus a problem here? Especially from the lexical point of view?

If the essence of a word is to act as a constraint on our thoughts, on our mental imagery, then the word for house should in fact be tied most to the notions of form and purpose.

A ship that has been completely rebuilt (effective cause) of new material (material cause) is still a ship precisely because neither the form (formal cause) nor purpose (final cause) have been affected.

Being pedantic, you might not say it is materially the same ship. But that is being pedantic because it is in fact the same ship in terms of the global constraints that prevail.

And if we were to actually start naming the materials from which it has been (re)constructed, then again - because words operate as constraints - we would talk about materials with some specific form and purpose, such as planks, or nails, or canvas, or pitch.

Pursuing that course we find that for natural language there is no word-object relation, where objects are mind-independent entities. That becomes very clear for Aristotle’s example, the word house, when we look into its meaning more closely. Its “form” in the Aristotelian sense is vastly more intricate than he assumed.

I am really lost here as I don't see in what sense Aristotle was assuming the form of a house to be something simple. As a label for a form, it is certainly very general. Other words, like cottage, castle, or condo, would conjure up a more specific mental image. So what point is Chomsky trying to make?

Furthermore, the conundrums based on the myth of a wordobject relation dissolve, when viewed from this perspective, which I believe has ample empirical support...In all such cases, there is no mind-independent object, which could in principle be identified by a physicist, related to the name.

It sounds like Chomsky believes that objective existence now has to be reserved for the material and effective causes of objects. Yet the Aristotelean view clearly states that the formal and final causes are equally much part of what is objectively real about an object. If they were lacking, the object could not in fact exist. There would be nothing for words to label.

It is not as if a house or ship is a house or ship because our minds are supplying their form and purpose, while the real world supplies their matter and the constructive actions?

As we proceed, we find much more intricate properties, no matter how simple the terms of language we investigate.

Yes, no matter how finely we divide reality, there always has to be all four causes, so there is always formal and final cause to constrain matter to have its definite "properties".

As Hume and others recognized, for natural language and thought there is no meaningful word-object relation because we do not think or talk about the world in terms of mind-independent objects; rather, we focus attention on intricate aspects of the world by resort to our cognoscitive powers.

No, lost again. I don't see how this follows from Aristotle's doctrine of hylomorphic form.

Accordingly, for natural language and thought there is no notion of reference in the sense of the modern philosophical tradition, developed in the work of Frege, Peirce, Russell, Tarski, Carnap, Quine, and others, or contemporary theorists of reference: “externalists,” in contemporary terminology.

OK, externalism is bad. Though I would wish for some actual definition of what Chomsky means by the term - what kind of objective fact does the word refer to?

And if he wants to deny Peirce's position on symbols - the idea that a physical token can stand for a semiotic relation - then I would like to see the working out here.

These technical concepts are fine for the purpose for which they were originally invented: formal systems where the symbols, objects, and relations are stipulated. Arguably they also provide a norm for science: its goal is to construct systems in which terms really do pick out an identifiable mind independent element of the world, like “neutron,” or “noun phrase.” But human language and thought do not work that way.

I see the claim, I just don't see anything but the claim. There is no working out provided. Perhaps you can provide it?
 
  • #478
Reflecting further on the opinion expressed by Chomsky, I see that it nicely clarifies the essential claims of semiosis.

As I have noted, semiosis as used in systems science to explain life/mind boils down to the ability to construct constraints. This is the essential novelty that makes a difference. The capacity to harness natural physical processes by controlling their boundary conditions.

And human language is an example of this.

The mind already exists. The brains of animals have evolved to model reality very effectively. It has its own tale of semiotic mechanism based on neurons, synapses, spikes, etc. But as Behaviourism realizes, the brain responds holistically. Its responses are situational, contextual.

Langauge then adds a new dimension to thought by supplying a way to construct states of mental constraint which abstract away the here and now. We can explore the what ifs, the might have beens, the never weres - the realm of rational speculation.

And then we can see that constraint - downward causality - is about form and finality. That is its essence. So that is also why our lexicon (and other "languages" like maths) deals primarily with the form and finality of the objects that furnish the world. Form and finality are naturally the basis for our semantics.

So this is the epistemological story: the lexicon is a collection of constraints that can be applied to the mind, and deals with the forms and purposes of the world. Effective cause is then embedded in syntax - language is based on sentences with a cause-and-effect structure. Material cause is then absent in the language system.

Well, of course it exists in the effort and noises we have to make to speak. There has to be a materiality to the act of speaking (and even thinking via our inner voice). But the energetic cost is zeroed in the same way that the hardware of a computer uses energy to compute, but it is designed so it does not care what it is computing. Every computational step costs the same, so in that way the material cost drops out of the equation. The software runs oblivious as the material effort involved is reduced to a constant factor.

And then there is the ontological situation. Back out in the real world, all four causes are fully and holistically at play. The material cost has to be included as part of the dynamical package.

From all this, you can better see why Chomsky is expressing a standard confusion about the nature of language and mathematics.

To simplify the situation (because it is complex), it is tempting to think that what exists "out there" is just the material and effective cause. And what exists "in here" is the formal and final cause necessary to complete the idea of an object.

So ontology is just the material realm, the bottom-up causality. Objectively objects are just a construction of substance.

And epistemology - our modelling of the world - then employs the immaterial notions of form and finality to make sense of the world. These things don't really exist. We just invent them.

That is a simple but incorrect view. The objective world in fact needs all its causes to exist. And the fact that the lexicon is a way to construct constraints (ie: supply what it takes to produce mental experiences of objects) is not the whole story of language (as Chomsky makes it out).

As said, effective cause gets encoded in syntactic habit (and it is revealing that Chomsky always sidesteps the issue of SOV structure, wanting to keep people focused on recursion, or merge - ie: the construction of hierarchically organised states of constraint).

And material cause is still part of the mental deal - even if it is there in the sense of being shrunk to zero so as to set up the epistemic cut which separates rate independent information from rate dependent dynamics in a semiotic system.
 
  • #479
apeiron said:
OK, externalism is bad. Though I would wish for some actual definition of what Chomsky means by the term - what kind of objective fact does the word refer to? And if he wants to deny Peirce's position on symbols - the idea that a physical token can stand for a semiotic relation - then I would like to see the working out here.
I posted his arguments before but here are some quotes:
The traditional conception of language is that it is, in Aristotle’s phrases, sound with meaning...Aristotle’s maxim should be inverted: language is meaning with sound, a rather different matter.

I cannot end without at least mentioning another extremely serious problem, which has been barely addressed. A computational procedure requires certain atoms of computation-in our case, a lexicon of minimal elements. But even the simplest of these pose fundamental problems: how do they relate to the mind-external world?

There are two aspects to the question: meaning and sound, the latter ancillary, if the reasoning above proves accurate. For sound, the answers lie in articulatory and acoustic phonetics. The problems are difficult. They have been studied intensively for many years, yielding some answers but leaving many outstanding problems. What about meaning? A standard answer for the core cases is provided by referentialist doctrine: the word cow picks out cows, maybe by a causal relation, and so forth. Something like that seems to be true for animal communication. Symbols appear to relate to physically identifiable external or internal states: motion of leaves elicits a warning cry (maybe an eagle coming); “I’m hungry”; etc. Nothing remotely like that is true for even the simplest elements of human language: cow, river, person, tree-pick anyone you want.

There are inklings of that understanding in classical philosophy, in Aristotle’s Metaphysics, particularly. It was considerably enriched, with a shift from metaphysics to epistemology and cognition, in the 17th and 18th centuries, in the work of British neo-Platonists and classical empiricists. They recognized that there is no direct link between the elementary elements of language and thought and some mind-independent external entity. Rather, these elements provide rich perspectives for interpreting and referring to the mind-independent world involving Gestalt properties, cause-and-effect, “sympathy of parts,” concerns directed to a “common end”, psychic continuity, and other such mentally-imposed properties. In this respect, meaning is rather similar to sound: every act of articulating some item, say the internal [ta], yields a physical event, but o one seeks some category of physical events associated with [ta].

Similarly, some (but by no means all) uses of the word river relate to physically identifiable entities, but there is no category of such entities identifiable in principle by a physicist investigating the mind-external world. In David Hume’s phrase, summarizing a century of inquiry, the “identity, which we ascribe” to vegetables, animal bodies, artifacts, persons and their minds, and so on-the array of individuating properties-is only a “fictitious one,” established by our “cognoscitive powers,” as they were termed by his 17th century predecessors.

Most of this has been forgotten, unfortunately, but there is strong evidence that it is basically correct. Once, again, failure to be puzzled is a serious error. If so, these elements so fundamental to human language and thought reveal another vast chasm between humans and other animals. They pose a huge problem for evolutionary biology, and a comparably huge Poverty of Stimulus problem. The What, How, and Why questions raised by these systems are virtually unexplored. Their origins remain entirely unknown, and if Lewontin (1998) is correct, perhaps never will be known.
Langauge and Other Cognitive Systems. What Is Special About Language?
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15475441.2011.584041

Collins also discusses this internalist position here:

Methodology, not metaphysics: Against Semantic Externalism
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8349.2009.00172.x/pdf

And this is another review:

Langauge as Internal
http://portal.uam.es/portal/page/profesor/epd2_profesores/prof1001/docencia/Language_as_Internal.pdf
 
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  • #480
apeiron said:
If you want a more populist treatment, there is Terrence Deacon's new book - Incomplete Nature: How Mind Emerged from Matter.

This is a critical (sarcastic?) piece from Chomsky talking about Deacon's earlier book:
Still another approach is outlined in a highly regarded book by neuroscientist Terrence Deacon (1997) on language and the brain. He proposes that students of language and its acquisition who are concerned with states of a genetically determined "module'" of the brain have overlooked another possibility: "that the extra support for language learning,'' beyond the data of experience, "is vested neither in the brain of the child nor in the brains of parents or teachers, but outside brains, in language itself.'' Langauge and languages are extrahuman. "Languages have evolved with respect to human brains''; "The world's languages evolved spontaneously'' and have "become better and better adapted to people,'' apparently the way prey and predator coevolve in the familiar cycle. Langauge and languages are not only extrahuman organisms but are outside the biological world altogether, it would seem. Infants are "predisposed to learn human languages'' and "are strongly biased in their choices'' of "the rules underlying language,'' but it is a mistake to try to determine what these predispositions are, and to seek their realization in brain mechanisms (in which case the extrahuman organisms vanish from the scene). It is worse than a mistake: to pursue the course of normal science in this case is to resort to a "magician's trick'' (Deacon 1997: chap. 4). I have been giving quotations, because I have no idea what this means, and understanding is not helped by Deacon's unrecognizable account of "linguistics'' and of work allegedly related to it. Whatever the meaning may be, the conclusion seems to be that it is a waste of time to investigate the brain to discover the nature of human language, and that studies of language must be about the extrahuman and apparently extrabiological-organisms that coevolved with humans and somehow "latch on'' to them, English latching on some, Japanese to others. I do not recommend this course either; in fact could not, because I do not understand it.
Linguistics and Brain Science
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/2000----.pdf
 
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