News Is Depleted Uranium Really a Problem?

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The discussion centers around the safety and implications of using depleted uranium (DU) in military applications, particularly in Iraq. Participants express skepticism about the legitimacy of claims regarding the health risks associated with DU, with some asserting that the dangers are exaggerated and that DU is primarily used for its effectiveness in armor-piercing munitions. Concerns are raised about the potential for inhalation of DU dust leading to health issues, while others argue that the actual use of DU in current conflicts is minimal and not a significant threat compared to other wartime dangers. The conversation also touches on the political narratives surrounding DU, suggesting that misinformation contributes to conspiracy theories about its effects. Overall, the consensus leans towards viewing DU as a lesser concern compared to other risks faced by military personnel.
  • #51
kyleb said:
Seriously though, the apparent and intended meaning are the same unless in this situation unless one makes a contious effort to avoid that meaning.
Considering that the normal way metal from a bullet or shrapnel enters your body is through a bullet or shrapnel wound and that there are a fair number of vets with permanent imbedded shrapnel, its not a stretch to say the quote was worded too loosely. ie, the following quote in the same article in which both meanings are relevant:
Dr Kilpatrick said a study that had followed 90 US Gulf War veterans exposed to the dust and to shrapnel from DU rounds in "friendly fire" incidents had found no DU-related medical problems. [emphasis added]
 
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  • #52
The dangers of water

kyleb said:
The dangers of water are far cry from those of radioactive heavy metals.
Do you know what 10,000-year flood levels are? If you don't, neither do most persons who live below them.
http://www.usgs.gov/ppp2000/forum8.html

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Currently 85% of Presidentially declared disasters in the United States are related to floods. Floods are also the deadliest natural disasters, killing 140 Americans each year.
--



The section "What will happen when a comet or asteroid strikes the Earth?" from this link...
http://personals.galaxyinternet.net/tunga/I3.htm

...talks about realistic tsunamis with deepwater heights of over a mile and runup heights several times that. The Indonesian tsunami that killed 200,000 to 300,000 had a deepwater height of only 60 centimeters.

--
In deep water the impact tsunami height might be several thousand feet high for a K/T size impactor, but the height will increase dramatically as the waves reach the shoreline because the wave slows in shallow water and the energy becomes more concentrated. The impact tsunami may produce several mile high waves that could travel several hundred miles inland.
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When dams fail, people die:
http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/aug1975.htm

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The August 1975 Disaster

Some brave souls worked in waist-deep water amidst the thunderstorm trying to save the embankment. As the dam began to disintegrate one of these brave souls, an older woman, shouted "Chu Jiaozi" (The river dragon has come!) The crumbling of the dam created a wall of water 6 meters high and 12 kilometers wide moving. Behind this moving wall of water was 600 million cubic meters of more water.

Altogether 62 dams broke. Downstream the dikes and flood diversion projects could not resist such a deluge. They broke as well and the flood spread over more than a million hectares of farm land throughout 29 counties and municipalities. One can imagine the terrible predicament of the city of Huaibin where the waters from the Hong and Ru Rivers came together. Eleven million people throughout the region were severely affected. Over 85 thousand died as a result of the dam failures. There was little or no time for warnings. The wall of water was traveling at about 50 kilometers per hour or about 14 meters per second. The authorities were hampered by the fact that telephone communication was knocked out almost immediately and that they did not expect any of the "iron dams" to fail.
--
 
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  • #53
That dam failure was the number one engineering disaster on a show on the science channel not too long ago. Those numbers are staggering.
 
  • #54
FYI, Depleted Uranium Health Effects

Depleted uranium is not a significant health hazard unless it is taken into the body. External exposure to radiation from depleted uranium is generally not a major concern because the alpha particles emitted by its isotopes travel only a few centimeters in air or can be stopped by a sheet of paper. Also, the uranium-235 that remains in depleted uranium emits only a small amount of low-energy gamma radiation. However, if allowed to enter the body, depleted uranium, like natural uranium, has the potential for both chemical and radiological toxicity with the two important target organs being the kidneys and the lungs. The most likely pathways by which uranium could enter the body are ingestion and inhalation. The relative contribution of each pathway to the total uptake into the body depends on the physical and chemical nature of the uranium, as well as the level and duration of exposure.

http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/guide/depletedu/health/index.cfm
 
  • #55
There is still Science..empirical facts that can be found..yet when they are out of the comfort zone many dispell them as conspiracy. Could it be possible that for capitalistic gains of large oil corporations and defense contractors that we would use munitions that are very effective, yet endanger our own troops. Do factories endanger their workers, giving OSHA payoffs ?..Well, the truth on DU is on a grander scale but is the same thing. We are nation building for oil under the guise of spreading freedom. I have never seen "insurgents" interviewed on the news, see Gulf War Veterans tell of their malformed children on shows addressing VA support/or lack of support. I have links on the dangers of DU..There is a Uranium Medical Research Facillity that has been pleading with our government to get more sensitive testing, do more testing and realize lower levels of DU over a lifetime damage the phosphorus in the DNA and internal organs. Short high level exposure can leave a front line shoulder with internal changes that result in death. Of course the VA is not anxious to link an efficient weapon with horrific effects. I am the wife of a Veteran Service Officer and he is having problems getting the multiple facial reconstructions of a WWII veteran paid for due to "SKIN" not being on their list of effected organs for coverage. Now, do you think carrying the injured and dead civilians away from GRound ZEro in Hiroshima would effect someone ? ..Just like the link in a post above by the Gov. ...They don't think it really effects anyone...and won't pay for it like they initially did not pay for Agent Orange victims..Corporations fueled by Capitalistic Greed love to adopt the "who me ?" approach. This is known..so how come it is hard, even considering Agent ORange that we are not suspicious of govt publications minimizing the danger ?

Could it be it is out of our comfort zone..and not until our grand child has 3 fingers or a facial malformation will we be alert enough to pay attention ?. (If science is not enough..lets try the politicians human interest approach)

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/236934p-203326c.html

I hope it doesn't take that to view scientific information and listen to previous inspectors and get facts. If Facts disagree with Bush, Kerry, and Congress (Our capitalistically owned players in this country)..can't they still be facts ?

Let me know..hell, if they can't be facts, I will just watch tv and get the hypnosis too ! I would be just grinning and happy about bringin all that freedom at the end of a gun barrel..hey and I would be a lot happier..but lying to myself..Have we gotten that stupified ?

Just my thoughts..Talkin56

For news and commentary see www.axisoflogic.com
 
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  • #56
The use of Depleted Uranium Munitions or DUMb as I like to call them, will kill us all, even if we do not participate in Our Illustrious Leader's wars.

Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people. That crap is going to be around for a long long long time and those that think the Middle East is a long way from downtown where ever had better think again. The wind carries. That crap is going to be around for a long long time, i.e., it has a 4.5 billion year half life.

It's use is a crime against nature. :mad:
 
  • #57
Rejjeye said:
The use of Depleted Uranium Munitions or DUMb as I like to call them, will kill us all, even if we do not participate in Our Illustrious Leader's wars.

Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people. That crap is going to be around for a long long long time and those that think the Middle East is a long way from downtown where ever had better think again. The wind carries. That crap is going to be around for a long long time, i.e., it has a 4.5 billion year half life.

It's use is a crime against nature. :mad:

So is cadmium--are you waving signs and cry foul on the internet because of NiCads? The 9 or so heavy metals found in common black ink are just as destructive as DU(DU is more dangerous as a heavy metal than as a radio active substance). Soldiers are more likely to be exposed to toxins from the powder used to propel a bullet than to be subjected to DU exposure. Soldiers and civilians in Iraq are more likely to suffer adverse effects of burning oil fileds(remember the first Gulf war, and the occasional oil field fires which still occur). Oh, you know that 4.5 billion year 1/2life? What exactly does that tell you? What if I told you about common items you encounter with higher and or lower 1/2 lives? Which would you be more afraid of?

Me, give me the 4.5 billion year 1/2 life of DU over the adverse effects of cadmium or the 5.26 year 1/2 life of Co-60(found in cobalt blue paint and blue chine ware) or the 5730 year half life of C14 or the 22.3 year 1/2 life of radioactive lead, or the 7x10^8 half life of U235(commonly associated with calcium deposits such as egg shells and coral) or even the 1.2x10^9 half life of potassium-40(comprises .6% of potassium, found in bananas). Face it, you are decrying DU because it is radioactive without fully understanding what that means. Longer half lives are less dangerous. Alpha decay is generally less dangerous(fear the sun more than incidental contact with an alpha emitter). These weapons do not "vaporize"(boiling point of uranium is about 3000 degrees C, U-O is about 4500 and Uranium alloy's is in the range of 3300 degrees) as has been characterized here. These weapons are not ceramic U-O compounds--they are uranium metal allows. They are much much more dangerous as heavy metals; however, we are subjected to heavy metal sources all of the time--and are usually oblivious.

Another thing, do you have copper pipes in your house? You should see how much damage a little copper or copper alloy can do to an eco system. In the ocean, copper is very detrimental to invertibrates(coral, shrimp, and the like).

Well, I'm too tired to carry on. If you have real, factual data to back up your claims(not there are more woundeds Gulf war I/II vets--we've developed systems and armors to help SAVE the lives of combat wounded since Viet Nam) then please I'd like to see. I'd like to see evidence to link DU with the hell fire and brimstone it's been linked with. Also, when yo give us this evidence make sure to include data covering the cases of DU exposure state side and its effects(the military practices with live fire weapons all the time).
 
  • #58
I found this post on a forum where I sometimes lurk. After you have listened to the radio program referenced here, it may clear up some of your misconceptions about Depleted Uranium Munitions.

TheStripey1 wrote:
I found this archived radio program on one of the other forums where I post... this is a recent show and has several of the heavy hitters involved in the anti-DU movement, including but not limited to Doug Rokke, Bob Nichols, Loren Moret and Susan Riordan...

I've read some of this material before, but... it is a whole different ballgame to actually hear these experts talk about DU...

Just hit Play Now! beside this show...

X-Zone Radio Archives

March 24, 2005 - Thursday - DEPLETED URANIUM: CAUSE & EFFECT- Dr. Doug Rokke - Pentagon's man in charge of Depleted Uranium Project and Clean Up, Leuren Moret - Famous former Nuclear Weapons Lab assistant who has spoken in over 42 countries on US Uranium Weapons - Dennis Kyne - After 15 years in the US Army, he knows the story of war and learned the hard way how to Support The Truth, Bob Nichols - Writer, Project Censored Award Winner, he has written Uranium Weapons materials and articles for hundreds of newspapers, magazine, radio and television shows, Karen Parker - A veteran American lawyer at the UN, she wrote the book on Uranium Weapons Law, Susan Riordan - Famous Canadian Uranium Weapons celebrity.
 
  • #59
faust9 said:
So is cadmium--are you waving signs and cry foul on the internet because of NiCads?

We have safe safe disposal procedures for NiCad batteries for a reason; if were were vaproising tons of the suff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?
 
  • #60
The radio program is four hours long. Perhaps, faust is still listening to it and has had his mind changed by what he has learned from it.

On the other hand, perhaps he doesn't believe experts in their field and prefers to speculate or believe what the government tells him about it.

Being a newbie here, I don't know any of you or your politics.
 
  • #61
kyleb said:
We have safe safe disposal procedures for NiCad batteries for a reason; if were were vaproising tons of the suff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?

Ah, the cry of a demagogue. "Millions of tons are killing babies all over the world! For the love of innocent babies do something before the evil destructive DU vapor clouds rain down death on all!" Well, as I said above, DU doesn't "vaporize". DU is used as a pencil-like sabot(a bullet within a bullet) designed to pierce and ricochet within an armored vehicle. It's not intended to kill by the vapors. The hunk of heavy metal rattling around inside a steel box is what kills. "Vaporizing" or whatever you want to call it would defeat the purpose of such a weapon. You don't want to poke a couple of holes in a steel box and hope the occupants die 30 years later from GI cancer or throat/lung cancer. You want them dead immediately.

As far as NiCads go, what's to stop an innocent child from opening one up and dieing from the toxic chemicals inside? What procedures are in place at landfills to prevent Joe Schmo from throwing NiCads away?

What about bleach?

What about those copper pipes I asked about before?

What about PVC?

What about bananas?

What about paper mills?

Your entire argument is based on emotion and a lack of knowledge about radioactive substances. DU is more dangerous as a heavy metal than as a scary-scary "radio active" isotope.

Now, what would you prefer? 1000's of soldiers killed or a few enemy soldiers killed? DU can be cleaned up. You can pick up DU sabot's and not worry. DU is wrapped in a metal jacket which blocks alpha emission (The US military--as far as I remember-- doesn't even require dosemetry to handel DU rounds). The US military--in Hawaii at least--does require rad stickes on fire alarms because of a tiny tiny alpha emitter found inside. In fact Squadron seven went so far as to require rad workers to replace the batteries for a while... That is how the US military handles radioactive substances--yet it doesn't required dosementry for handling of DU rounds. Hmmm I wonder why? Oh I know, Du rounds don't even emit alpha's unless the du is exposed. DU doesn't build up in vulcan cannons or seawiz cannons.

Anywho, This is another thread I'm done with. Quit falling back to the emotional respone and start looking at this froom a scientiffic stand point.
 
  • #62
I do not know if I should post this, this thread does not seem to be getting any where. I found an article by Leuren Moret one of the these 'experts' on DU.
article
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MOR407A.html
It is scary when Bush's quote is the one I agree with.
This seems to be the report that is to blame for part of this misconception of DU.
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/DU-Radiological-Toxicity-WHO5nov01.htm
The oxide particulates may be much more refractory to dissolution than the metal, if they are primarily composed of UO2. Refractory particles inhaled at the time of their production or subsequently, as a result of resuspension, could be of greater significance radiologically than through the chemical toxicity of their uranium content. This is because such particles can be retained in various organs and tissues, including the respiratory and reticuloendothelial systems, irradiating their surroundings. If such particles are leached only slowly, they will contribute to only a limited degree to an increase of uranium concentrations in the kidneys.

The distribution and retention of inhaled radioactive refractory particulates has been studied extensively. In particular, a great deal of work has been undertaken on high-fired PuO2. Particles, with aerodynamic diameters of up to a few tens of micrometres are readily inhaled. Particles with aerodynamic diameters of more than a few micrometres are mainly deposited in the upper part of the respiratory tract (the nasal passages, trachea and larger bronchi) and are largely cleared by mechanical action on a time scale of a few hours. Smaller particles penetrate more deeply into the lungs and sub-micrometre particles are deposited mainly in the respiratory tissues (the pulmonary parenchyma) comprising the bronchioli and alveoli. (ICRP 1994)
Bold add.
They have the dangers switched in this report. Also they are comparing U238 to P238 but neglect to mention the half lifes Pu-238 with its 87.8 years. Du's half life is 4.5 billion years.
These ultra-fine particles may be more soluble in physiological fluids, thus creating a local environment of enhanced uranium concentration in the cells proximal to the particle of DU-oxide. In this respect it is notable that DU-UO2 2+ cation is capable of transforming human osteoblast cells in culture to a tumourigenic phenotype (Miller, Fuciarelli et al. 1998). Similar transformation can be achieved with nickel and, to a lesser extent, with lead, leading to the conclusion that this transformation may have little to do with the radioactivity of DU. This conclusion is confirmed by the small fraction (0.0014%) of cells hit by alpha particles at the uranium concentrations used.
Here the report changes its mind and admits that DU might not be that radioactive, but then lead on to:
It is relevant to note that nickel is an established carcinogen (IARC 1990) and has been shown to induce a genomic instability similar to that induced by radiation (Coen, Mothersill et al. 2001).
So out with DU, out with Pb, and out with Nickel too.
The article seems to be mostly hype too me. I did n ot see an argument that made DU more dangraous then lead or Nickel.
 
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  • #63
Yes, and they also neglect the decay energy for PU-238 is about 10x greater than that of U-238. Go figure, release a highly charged particle with more energy and it does more damage. Release more of these particles in the same time span and get more damage.
 
  • #64
Thank you another reason why the article is fluff and that is all anything in this subject seems to be when it takes the stance the DU is a Real hazard.
 
  • #65
They also assume in there calculation that 50% is acts as a class M radioactive matrial.
Class M is a gamma ray producer with few alpha particle the exact opposite of U238.
http://www.cab.cnea.gov.ar/residuos/CC2003/003-SecB.pdf
 
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  • #66
faust9 said:
Ah, the cry of a demagogue. "Millions of tons are killing babies all over the world! For the love of innocent babies do something before the evil destructive DU vapor clouds rain down death on all!"

I didn't say anything about killing babies, so maybe you should take your own advice.

faust9 said:
Quit falling back to the emotional respone and start looking at this froom a scientiffic stand point.
 
  • #67
Rejjeye said:
The radio program is four hours long. Perhaps, faust is still listening to it and has had his mind changed by what he has learned from it.

On the other hand, perhaps he doesn't believe experts in their field and prefers to speculate or believe what the government tells him about it.
Chances are, no one is going to listen to 4 hours of that - if you have any facts to present, please do. Your posts appear to reflect some common misconceptions, ie: long half life=bad. In fact, the longer the half-life, the less radioactive something is. Also, this was an interesting comment:
Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people.
Um, a trillion people?
 
  • #68
kyleb said:
I didn't say anything about killing babies, so maybe you should take your own advice.

No, you still tried to use emotion to make your point by saying "if were were vaproising tons of the stuff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?" Granted you didn't say babies, but I used a little literary tool called hyperbole to highlight this use of emotion.
 
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  • #69
Davorak said:
They have the dangers switched in this report. Also they are comparing U238 to P238 but neglect to mention the half lifes Pu-238 with its 87.8 years. Du's half life is 4.5 billion years.

So what?

Is the use of the word "billion" supposed to incite reactions of fear here?
 
  • #70
brewnog said:
So what?

Is the use of the word "billion" supposed to incite reactions of fear here?

Are you serious?
 
  • #71
faust9 said:
No, you still tried to use emotion to make your point by saying "if were were vaproising tons of the stuff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?" Granted you didn't say babies, but I used a little literary tool called hyperbole to highlight this use of emotion.

No emotion there, I asked you a simple question. Would you not cry foul if we changed our method of disposing of NiCad batteries to heating them to the point where they become gas and letting that gas loose all across our landscape? It is a yes or no question, would you please answer it that way?
 
  • #72
kyleb said:
No emotion there, I asked you a simple question. Would you not cry foul if we changed our method of disposing of NiCad batteries to heating them to the point where they become gas and letting that gas loose all across our landscape? It is a yes or no question, would you please answer it that way?

Then your question is inherently flawed because DU rounds don't vaporize[an emotional term]. DU vapor isn't spread across the landscape[an emotional concept]. Du alloy does not turn into some evil gas[an emotional idea]. So if you want to ask a question then feel free by all means; however, I'll not answer an inherently flawed question. Would you not cry foul if an ax murderer was chopping up babies with a rusted ax on the lawn of the white house with Bill Frist and Tom Delay dancing naked around an open BBQ pit? My question just as flawed as the one you asked because we all know ax murderers prefer sharpened blades, and we all know the energy required to "vaporize" a metel is well in excess of that generated in an impact(even for liquid Hg).

[edit] To be more precise: the energy converted to heat upon impact.
 
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  • #73
faust9 said:
Then your question is inherently flawed because DU rounds don't vaporize[an emotional term].

If anything is an emotional term in there it is the word "don't." http://www.usafp.org/PDA-Files/Databases/Radiological-handbook-tagged.pdf

DU is useful in kinetic-energy penetrator munitions as it is also pyrophoric and literally ignites and sharpens under the extreme pressures and temperatures generated by impact.

With enough presure and heat, anything will burn. So how about that NiCad disposal method, yes or no?
 
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  • #74
kyleb said:
If anything is an emotional term in there it is the word "don't." http://www.usafp.org/PDA-Files/Databases/Radiological-handbook-tagged.pdf

With enough presure and heat, anything will burn. So how about that NiCad disposal method, yes or no?

From your own source:

"Depleted uranium munitions on the battlefield do not cause a significant radiation hazard, although if vaporized and inhaled, they do pose the risk of heavy-metal toxicity to the kidneys.[/color] Materials such as industrial radiography units, damaged medical radiotherapy units, and old reactor fuel rods can be responsible for significant local radiation hazards."

If being the operative word. And look what sources they mentioned.

"DEPLETED URANIUM Depleted uranium (DU) is neither a radiological nor chemical threat. It is not aweapon of mass destruction. It is contained in this manual for medical treatment issues. DU is defined as uranium metal in which the concentration of uranium-235 has been reduced from the 0.7% that occurs naturally to a value less than 0.2%. DU is a heavy, silverywhite metal, a little softer than steel, ductile, and slightly paramagnetic. In air, DU develops a layer of oxide that gives it a dull black color.[/color] "

Hmmm, not a radiological threat.

"DU is useful in kinetic-energy penetrator munitions as it is also pyrophoric and literally ignites and sharpens under the extreme pressures and temperatures generated by impact.[/color] (The fact that tungsten penetrators do not sharpen on impact—but in fact mushroom—is one reason they are less effective for overcoming armor.) As the penetrator enters the crew compartment of the target vehicle, it brings with it a spray of molten metal as well as shards of both penetrator and vehicle armor[/color] (spall), any of which can cause secondary explosions in stored ammunition."

It melts, it doesn't boil--huge difference. Vaporization is converting a liquid or metal into a gas. DU essentially shears as it penetrates until it completely pierces armor. It melts though it doesn't "vaporize". Read above: shards of penetrator as well as molten metal. The "secondary" effects pose more of a risk than those posed by DU. Toxins from burning plastic and artilary propelents are more dangerous in the short and long term.

"After such a penetration, the interior of the struck vehicle will be contaminated with DU dust and fragments and with other materials generated from armor and burning interior components.[/color] Consequently, casualties may exhibit burns derived from the initial penetration as well as from secondary fires. They also may have been wounded by and retain fragments of DU and other metals. Inhalation injury may occur from any of the compounds generated from metals, plastics, and components fused during the fire and explosion. "

Seems like a rather localized event. Inside of an armored vehicle and all.

"Radiation from DU DU emits alpha, beta, and weak gamma radiation. Due to the metal’s high density, much of the radiation never reaches the surface of the metal. It is thus “self-shielding.”[/color] Uranium-238, thorium-234, and protactinium-234 will be the most abundant isotopes present in a DU-ammunition round and its fragments. "

"Internalized DU Internalization of DU through inhalation of particles in dust and smoke, ingestion of particles, or wound contamination present potential radiological and toxicological risks.[/color] Single exposures of 1 to 3 μg of uranium per gram of kidney can cause irreparable damage to the kidneys. Skeletal and renal deposition of uranium occurs from implanted DU fragments. The toxic level for long-term chronic exposure to internal uranium metal is unknown, but no renal damage has been documented to date in test models or Gulf War casualties. The heavy-metal hazards are probably more significant than the radiological hazards. For insoluble compounds, the ingestion hazards are minimal because most of the uranium will be passed through the gastrointestinal tract unchanged. This may not be the case with inhaled DU, as heavy metal may be its primary damaging modality.[/color] The normally issued chemical protective mask will provide excellent protection against both inhalation and ingestion of DU particles. "

Goes back to DU is worse as a chemical than as a radioactive material. Kidney damage is a result of heavy metal poisoning. Nickel, copper, and lead will do the same thing BTW.

"BIOLOGICAL DOSIMETRY Physical dosimeters may misrepresent the actual radiation dose and may not be available in a combat or accident irradiation incident. It is important to assess the biological response to an absorbed dose of ionizing radiation in order to predict the medical consequences. The absorbed dose and the fraction of the body exposed should be determined with the highest degree of accuracy available. General Differences of 10% in absorbed dose can produce clearly observable variations in biological response. Hematopoietic recovery in heavily irradiated areas of the body will be possible if a sufficient number of stem cells survive in unirradiated or mildly irradiated portions of the hematopoietic system. Knowledge of the heterogeneity of the absorbed dose is particularly important with respect to medical treatment decisions for patients exhibiting radiation-induced bone-marrow syndrome. Cytokine therapy will stimulate proliferation of spared stem cells, but in cases of whole-body stem-cell sterility, bonemarrow transplant may become necessary. A crude estimate of absorbed dose can be obtained from the clinical presentation and assessment of the response of actively proliferating cell systems to radiation. Uncertainties in dose estimates arise largely from the high variability between individuals and other factors such as infection. Generally, the sensitivity of these bioindicators is poor, and given the transient nature of the signs and symptoms in sublethal doses, their clinical usefulness is limited. Biological dosimetry is recommended to support medical treatment decisions. Reliable biodosimetry is indicated to validate lowdose exposures in occupational radioprotection cases. The analysis of chromosomal aberrations in peripheral blood lymphocytes is widely used to assess radiation dose. Even in partial-body exposures, chromosome damage is an excellent indicator of the absorbed dose. Many types of chromosomal aberrations may appear in lymphocytes following exposure to radiation. Dicentrics (chromosomes with two centromeres) are biomarkers for ionizing radiation exposure. The incidence of dicentrics in blood lymphocytes for the general population is 1 in 1 x 103 metaphases. Human T-lymphocytes have a long half-life, and a small proportion of them survives for decades. The frequency of dicentrics following exposure remains fairly stable up to a few weeks. After acute partial-body exposure, the irradiated lymphocytes rapidly mix with unirradiated blood, and equilibrium is reached within 24 hours. "

Not specifically about DU but rather exposure to radiation (see above sources).

"DEPLETED URANIUM Depleted uranium (DU) emits limited alpha, beta, and some gamma radiation. DU does not cause radiation threat.[/color] It is found in armor-piercing munitions, armor, and aircraft counterweights. It is readily detectable with a typical end-window G-M (Geiger-Mueller) counter. Inhaled uranium compounds may be metabolized and result in urinary excretion. Inhalation of DU oxides may occur during tank fires or by entering destroyed armored vehicles without a protective mask. Absorption will be determined by the chemical state of the uranium. Soluble salts are readily absorbed; the metal is not. DU fragments in wounds become encapsulated and are gradually metabolized, resulting in whole-body distribution, particularly to bone and kidney. In laboratory tests, DU does cross the placenta. No renal toxicity has been documented to date. TREATMENT: Sodium bicarbonate makes the uranyl ion less nephrotoxic. Tubular diuretics may be beneficial. DU fragments in wounds should be removed whenever possible. Extensive surgery solely to removeDUfragments isNOTindicated. All fragments greater than 1 cm in diameter should be removed when the procedure is practical. Laboratory evaluation should include urinalysis, 24-hour urine for uranium bioassay, serum BUN, creatinine, beta-2-microglobulin, creatinine clearance, and liver function studies. "

So bad it can wait to be removed when practivcle.

Like any heavy metal DU attacks the kidneys and bones. Soft tissue is destroyed by radiation. Gonads, eyes, bladder are targets for radiation, not kidnets and bones. DU is bad because it is a heavy metal--it's no worse then lead or the other heavy metals that have been mentioned.
 
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  • #75
So does all that quoting and bolding mean you would be willing to get together so we could vaproize some cadmium and mabye throw in something that emits some alpha radiation, and have you huff a bit of it up? :-p
 
  • #76
russ_watters said:
Um, a trillion people?


:smile: :smile:

Ah, I've missed this forum. On a good day, its just like TD, except with more terminology in common with reality.
 
  • #77
It's easy to kill trillions of people

russ_watters said:
Rejjeye said:
Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people.
a trillion people?
One million premature deaths every year for one million years would add up to one trillion premature deaths. One thousand premature deaths every year for one billion years would add up to one trillion premature deaths.

It's easy to kill trillions of people, Russ.
 
  • #78
hitssquad said:
One million premature deaths every year for one million years would add up to one trillion premature deaths. One thousand premature deaths every year for one billion years would add up to one trillion premature deaths.

It's easy to kill trillions of people, Russ.
Sure, you just need to make some assumptions about the longevity of the species and the magnitude of the "problem"...
 
  • #79
kyleb said:
So does all that quoting and bolding mean you would be willing to get together so we could vaproize some cadmium and mabye throw in something that emits some alpha radiation, and have you huff a bit of it up? :-p

Alpha radiation, I'll be sure to bring a dust mask. Alpha radiation can be stopped by a sheet of paper.

http://www.orau.gov/reacts/alpha.htm

Cadmium, it already exists as a dust just like the uranium.
What happens to cadmium when it enters the environment?
Cadmium enters air from mining, industry, and burning coal and household wastes.
Cadmium particles in air can travel long distances before falling to the ground or water.
It enters water and soil from waste disposal and spills or leaks at hazardous waste sites.
It binds strongly to soil particles.
Some cadmium dissolves in water.
It doesn't break down in the environment, but can change forms.
Fish, plants, and animals take up cadmium from the environment.
Cadmium stays in the body a very long time and can build up from many years of exposure to low levels.

We don't know if humans get any of these diseases from eating or drinking cadmium. Skin contact with cadmium is not known to cause health effects in humans or animals

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts5.html
 
  • #80
Ba said:
Alpha radiation, I'll be sure to bring a dust mask. Alpha radiation can be stopped by a sheet of paper.

Me too; but I'm curuous to see if faust9 would be willing to go without inorder to back up his position.

As for cadmium, just like any heavy metal:

Acute exposure causes pulmonary edema, which may result in death. The most serious consequence is cancer (lung and prostate). The first observed chronic effect is generally kidney damage. Cadmium also is
believed to cause pulmonary emphysema and bone disease (osteomalcia and osteoporosis). The latter has been observed in Japan ("itai-itai" disease) where residents were exposed to cadmium in rice crops irrigated
with cadmium-contaminated water. Cadmium may also cause anemia.
Metal fume fever may result from acute exposure. It includes flu-like symptoms of weakness, fever, headache, chills, sweating and muscular pain. Acute pulmonary edema usually develops within 24 hours and reaches a
maximum by three days. If death does not occur, symptoms may resolve within a week. Excretion of excessive low molecular weight protein in the urine is usually the first symptom of chronic kidney damage.

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/adper/cade_content/epi_manual/cadmium.pdf
 
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  • #81
kyleb said:
Me too; but I'm curuous to see if faust9 would be willing to go without inorder to back up his position.

As for cadmium, just like any heavy metal:



http://www.idph.state.ia.us/adper/cade_content/epi_manual/cadmium.pdf


Wow, you just don't get it do you? You came into this thread decrying DU as the end all be all when I pointed out there are many heavy metals floating around you, more abundantly even on the battle field except inside of an armour vehicle that happen ed to be shot wherein the secondary toxin release is more deadly that the DU which this thread is about, and you continue to harp about cadmium. What's your point? I made mine--DU isn't nearly as bad as many make it out to be. In fact, I used your own source to show that the heavy metal effects of DU are more dire than the radiological, and your here harping about cadmium still. I used that literary tool--hyperbole(I mentioned this already) to show the doom and gloom crowd how silly they are and you've taken up the flag of cadmium. Well, might I recommend you start a cadmium thread so we can weigh the pluses and minuses of its use. Why are you picking on cadmium BTW---copper and nickel are just as bad. Pure aluminum can poison you as well but you seem to be fixated on one little nasty chemical.

Here, tell you what--I'd wear a mask to investigate a burned out armour vehicle. Not because I'm afraid of radiological DU but because I wouldn't subject myself to ALL of the deadly toxins found smoldering inside. Cripes R-12/134a break down into formic acid(I believe that's the compound too lazy to figure it out) at about 600 degrees. I'm not going to risk breathing that when peeking into a disabled vehicle. The DU is not spread across the landscape, it's contained. The rounds that hit mother Earth can be dug up and put in your pocket without fear of radiation poisoning. The dust within the and locally around a burned out vehicle becomes insignificant when one looks at an entire country side. The decay of U238 is insignificant and is not what kills people--heavy metal poisoning does.

Oh for your info, I've used thorium, californium, and americium sources among others, so a little bit of weak alpha emitter is not frightening to me. I'm more worried about skin contact with Cadmium(It's used on high power bus bars to improve conductivity and reduce corrosion) than ingesting or inhaling a few grams of DU. I know very little of the bad stuff you inhale stays in(you exhale most of it anyway and what you don't exhale get trapped by mucus). Chemicals that are immediatly toxic are why I'd wear a mask. I'd wear a mask but not because of DU alone.
 
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  • #82
faust9 said:
Wow, you just don't get it do you? You came into this thread decrying DU as the end all be all...

I get that you are dillisional, you made that blatently obvious here.

For the record, I came into this thread simply stanting my understanding of the usage of DU munitions, not making any decries as to the effects of them:

kyleb said:
I'm pretty sure SK is wrong though, from what I understand the M1 Abrams tanks use DU-tipped rounds exclusively. Also, the claim that "DU ammunition is not effective" against "soft targets" comes off as downright absurd to me; I can't think of any reason DU would be less effective the conventional muntions.
 
  • #83
hitssquad said:
One million premature deaths every year for one million years would add up to one trillion premature deaths. One thousand premature deaths every year for one billion years would add up to one trillion premature deaths.

It's easy to kill trillions of people, Russ.

And here I thought this place was a math class and it took nearly a page for someone to reason it out... 4.5 billion years... it will kill for far longer than 4.5 billion, there's the next 4.5 billion to reduce it by another half... another 4.5 to reduce that by another half... so yeah, a trillion people.

listen to the program and HEAR the facts, turn it on while you wash the dishes or pull weeds. These are the experts, you can listen to their words of experience or rely on misrepresentations parroted by others.

your choice...
 
  • #84
Rejjeye said:
And here I thought this place was a math class and it took nearly a page for someone to reason it out... 4.5 billion years... it will kill for far longer than 4.5 billion, there's the next 4.5 billion to reduce it by another half... another 4.5 to reduce that by another half... so yeah, a trillion people.

The reason it took so long for someone to come up with those numbers is because it's bad math! It's misleading at best and scaremongering at worst. Given the right assumptions, anything from heart attacks to running with scissors can be shown to cause a billion or even trillion deaths. You will find that most scientific studies will express this figure either in deaths per million population or deaths per year. In any case, using a number like one trillion is self-defeating. Almost anyone who heard it would know you were getting creative with the math and be a little skeptical.

The 4.5 Billion year half-life they're touting around is another good example of scare-mongering. A longer half-life means the element in question decays more slowly which in turn means that less radioactivity is emitted per gram of the substance.

Here's a little math to illustrate that last point:

^{238}U: half-life=4.47x10^9 years=1.41x10^{17} seconds; Isotopic\ mass=238.05
^{222}Rn: half-life=3.82 days=3.30x10^5 seconds; Isotopic\ mass=222.02

Source: Chart of the Nuclides, Fourteenth Edition

222Rn is Radon, a gas that's found in a lot of homes and has created quite a scare in the US in recent years.

1 gram of an Isotopic substance contains n=\frac{N_A}{A} atoms, where NA is Avogadro's Number and A is the Isotopic mass of the substance. Given n atoms and the half-life T1/2, the activity (a) will be a=\frac{\ln 2}{T_{1/2}}*n disintegrations per second

Working through the math, I come up with

a(238U)=1.24x104 disentigrations per second
a(222Rn)=5.70x1015 disentigrations per second

5.70x1015divided by 1.24x104 yields ~5x1011. This means that 1g of 222Rn is 500 billion times more radioactive than 238U. To put it another way, 1g of Radon has about the same level of radioactivity as 500,000 metric tons of Uranium. Compare this to the (very likely inflated) estimates of 200-2000 tons of DU used during Gulf War 2.

For comparison's sake, a USGS study found that in 1982 Coal plants in the US released approximately 700-800 tons of Uranium into the atmosphere. This number is most likely higher today. We in fact drop as much Uranium on ourselves every year as was used in Iraq. An EPA study of this concluded that the radioactivity from this Uranium posed no health risk to the public at large.

listen to the program and HEAR the facts, turn it on while you wash the dishes or pull weeds. These are the experts, you can listen to their words of experience or rely on misrepresentations parroted by others.

your choice...

Yes, I choose to believe sound science instead of scaremongering. Anyone who shows an atomic bomb on a web page about DU is trying to scare you. Anyone making statements like 'it'll be there for 4 billion years!' is trying to scare you. Anyone showing pictures of 3-headed babies is trying to scare you. For the most part, these folks seem to be environmentalist who are against nuclear weapons proliferation. By applying the term 'nuclear' to DU, they can inspire a knee-jerk reaction of 'OMG, that's horrible!' from their readers without any support for their claims. If they can get enough people believing them to get DU weapons banned, that's just one more notch on their 'anti-nuclear' agenda.

Now that I'm done with that, here are a few amplifications/disclaimers:

First, I think DU can be harmful in high enough concentrations. This shouldn't really be a surprise. There are lots of harmful things out there. I think a soldier poking around inside of a tank that's just been shot with a DU round may inhale enough DU (and other crap) to adversely affect his health. These concentrations would be way, way above what the average soldier handling the DU was exposed to. That said, I don't really think that DU was a huge contributor to the health of most soldiers in the Gulf War. First, I don't think 50% of the soldiers in that war would have even been near DU rounds and second there were plenty of sources that (in my *opinion*) seem more likely, namely the oil well fires and accounts of bombed chemical weapons plants.
 
  • #85
Grogs said:
The reason it took so long for someone to come up with those numbers is because it's bad math! It's misleading at best and scaremongering at worst.
Misleading and scaremongering, but not bad math (I mean - a million times a million is a trillion :rolleyes: ) - but misleading and scaremongering (and meaningless, and, well, kinda lame) is enough.

I have to ask, just to be sure: Rejjeye, are you serious?
 
  • #86
Russ: You're correct. I don't mean 'bad' as in the math itself is wrong, rather it's the assumption behind the math that are bad.
In this particular case, we have to assume that:

1) DU poisoning is causing one million deaths per year
2) The human race will exist for the next one million years
3) In that time, nobody will take any action to prevent further poisoning (clean it up or at least move away from the source)

Here's another example of bad (not wrong) math:

The town of Clear Lake, Iowa, population 1000, had 3 deaths last year from toaster malfunctions. Extrapolating to the world population of 6 billion we estimate there were about ~18 million toaster-related deaths last year, which will lead to ~18 trillion deaths over the next million years or so. Somebody needs to do something about those things!

You don't have to look very hard to find the bad assumptions in the example above.
 
  • #87
Grogs said:
Russ: You're correct. I don't mean 'bad' as in the math itself is wrong, rather it's the assumption behind the math that are bad.
In this particular case, we have to assume that:

1) DU poisoning is causing one million deaths per year
2) The human race will exist for the next one million years
3) In that time, nobody will take any action to prevent further poisoning (clean it up or at least move away from the source)

Here's another example of bad (not wrong) math:

The town of Clear Lake, Iowa, population 1000, had 3 deaths last year from toaster malfunctions. Extrapolating to the world population of 6 billion we estimate there were about ~18 million toaster-related deaths last year, which will lead to ~18 trillion deaths over the next million years or so. Somebody needs to do something about those things!

You don't have to look very hard to find the bad assumptions in the example above.

LMAO--another way that bread has become the killer that it is. Bread+Toaster=18Trillion deaths!
 
  • #88
Grogs said:
...we estimate there were about ~18 million toaster-related deaths last year, which will lead to ~18 trillion deaths over the next million years or so. Somebody needs to do something about those things!

I bet that damned white bread had something to do with it too...

Nice post Grogs. I needed the laugh (the point was well taken too).
 
  • #89
You guys have seen the Simpsons episode where Homer's hand keeps finding its way into the toaster, right? Don't turn your back on it - it'll come after you...
 
  • #90
Rejjeye said:
listen to the program and HEAR the facts, turn it on while you wash the dishes or pull weeds. These are the experts, you can listen to their words of experience or rely on misrepresentations parroted by others.
I already commented on that "expert" Bob Nichols. He wrote:
This story is about American weapons built with depleted uranium components for the business end of things. Just about all American bullets, tank shells, missiles, dumb bombs, smart bombs, 500 and 2,000-pound bombs, cruise missiles, and anything else engineered to help our side in the war of us against them has depleted uranium in it. Lots of depleted uranium.
This is so utterly wrong it´s not even funny. Him writing that can mean exactly two things:
A) He knows he´s lying and thinks the "story" is worth grossly misinforming the audience.
B) He is too stupid to do even the most basic research.
Whatever the reason is, it disqualifies this person from being called an expert, let alone even being taken serious.
 
  • #91
I think my posts and faust9 have shown many of Dr. Doug Rokke and Leuren Moret comments to be misleading at best. Bob Nichols has been addressed. So of Rejjeye's "experts" we have not directly addressed comments from:
"Dennis Kyne - After 15 years in the US Army, he knows the story of war and learned the hard way how to Support The Truth"
"Karen Parker - A veteran American lawyer at the UN, she wrote the book on Uranium Weapons Law, Susan Riordan - Famous Canadian Uranium Weapons celebrity."
At this point I think the majority of posters here just want to make sure faulty info is not spread about.
 
  • #92
If you believe Corporations and the VA won't steal your life..you are wrong.

This is talkin56..Greetings. I enter the news and commentary for www.axisoflogic.com. Today I entered an article in news-americas:

Don’t drink the water or Buy A House Near San Francisco Bay
Dennis Kyne, -SFBayView.com Apr 5, 2005 http://www.sfbayview.com/033005/dontdrink033005.shtml

When you pair this article showing how local officials and the government back each other up against the welfare of the residents, combined with the media being Corporate controlled, and them being the Winners so far in Iraq...Would you believe what they said on Uranium Munitions ?

My husband is a Veteran Service Officer..a person assigned to each county to help veterans apply for benefits. The VA did not recognize Skin lesions and tumors in its list of covered organs in reference to soldiers carrying the dead and dying away from the Atomic Bomb in WWII. One man here has had 5 facial reconstructions..a poor mountain man. Another, an ex CIA agent retired in Hawaii has had the same..Educated or not the Military has created a loophole when it sees REAL RISK...or a coverup like in the article above..

Why do you think the Military named it DE pleated ? Propaganda at its finest..Talkin56
 
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  • #93
So you think it is not depleated? Do you think it is enriched before being sent to Iraq? What would be the point?
 
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